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Post by kaptplanet on Aug 1, 2023 22:00:40 GMT
Hey guys,
Does the ironcurse icon provide a ward save against non warmachine troop types that fire warmachine weapons. Such as a stegadon, hellcanon or cygor?
It seems to me that they would because they fire following the rules of a warmachine weapon?
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Post by thegoat on Aug 1, 2023 22:15:36 GMT
If the unit entry says to use warmachine rules to fire, then yes ironcurse icon would apply. ie. the Hellcannon's Doomfire rule says "Doomfire is fired following the rules for a stone thrower..."
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 1, 2023 22:54:11 GMT
Admittedly, the English version is unclear, because there is no definition of a "war machine weapon." However, wherever the English version has "war machine weapon" (including the Ironcurse Icon!), the French version just has "machines de guerre" (war machines), i.e. the troop type.
I should think this Erratum clinches it, precisely because it drops the term "war machine weapon" (and machines de guerre in the French version) when addressing the difference between the weapons that have the troop type and weapons that fire like one (= "all weapons in this section"; French "toutes les armes décrites dans cette section").
Hence, the Ironcurse Icon would only come into effect against weapons with the war machine troop type.
That said, we have the following Ogre Kingdoms FAQ (Official Update Version 1.1, p.2):
Q: Do the Scraplauncher Catapult, Cannon of the Sky-titans and Sphere of Frost-wreathed Ice have the Slow to Fire special rule? In addition, can ward saves from the Ironcurse Icon be taken against Wounds caused by these weapons? (p49, 51, 55) A: Yes to both questions.
These units do not have the war machine troop type, and one could take the FAQ as a precedent. However, as always, "unless specifically stated otherwise, normal rules apply." In the case of the Ogre units, it is specifically stated otherwise. Elsewhere, it is not. Note also that the wording for two of them is unusual. The Scraplauncher catapult special rule states that it "is a stone thrower," and the Sphere of Frost-wreathed Ice special rule that "it can make a stone thrower shooting attack."
Edit: rahotep75 beat me to my edit. The Tomb King FAQ has no relevance, because the Casket of Souls actually is a war machine, but the Light of Death spell is, well, a spell.
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Post by rahotep75 on Aug 1, 2023 23:14:00 GMT
These FAQ entries would suggest that it’s weapons in the “War Machine” section of the rulebook that trigger the ward and not the troop type:
From Ogre Kingdoms:
Q: Do the Scraplauncher Catapult, Cannon of the Sky- titans and Sphere of Frost-wreathed Ice have the Slow to Fire special rule? In addition, can ward saves from the Ironcurse Icon be taken against Wounds caused by these weapons? (p49, 51, 55) A: Yes to both questions
From Tomb Kings:
Q: Can models take a ward save from the Ironcurse Amulet against Wounds caused by the Light of Death spell? (p40) A: No.
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Post by thegoat on Aug 1, 2023 23:17:07 GMT
Admittedly, the English version is unclear, because there is no definition of a "war machine weapon." However, wherever the English version has "war machine weapon" (including the Ironcurse Icon!), the French version just has "machines de guerre" (war machines), i.e. the troop type. I should think this Erratum clinches it, precisely because it drops the term "war machine weapon" (and machines de guerre in the French version) when addressing the difference between the weapons that have the troop type and weapons that fire like one (= "all weapons in this section"; French " toutes les armes décrites dans cette section"). BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.4 (English): Page 109 – Shooting with War Machines. Change “Unless specified otherwise, all war machine weapons…” to “Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines)… LIVRE DE RÈGLES Mise à Jour Officielle version 1.8h, p.3: Page 109 – Tirer avec une Machine de Guerre Remplacez « (...) toutes les machines de guerre (…) » par « (...) toutes les armes décrites dans cette section (et toutes les autres armes montées sur des machines de guerre )(…) Hence, the Ironcurse Icon would only come into effect against weapons with the war machine troop type. I don't follow your logic. The erratum change states "all weapons in this section". The "weapons mounted on war machines" bit is part of a parenthetical clause that only applies to "all other weapons". "all weapons in this section" includes Stone Throwers. So my example above with the Hellcannon using the rules for a stone thrower, would qualify.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 1, 2023 23:43:58 GMT
thegoat : That is not correct, and you need to keep in mind the French version which only has "war machines" where the English version has "war machine weapons." The BRB distinguishes between rules for the troop type war machine, and the rules how they are fired (i.e. regardless of troop type). BRB p. 108: "The first part of rules pertains to the rules for the war machine troop type — essentially its chassis and crew — which apply to all war machines. The second part consists of the rules for how each specific type war machine fires (and how it slaughters your foe)." The Erratum changes "all war machines weapons" (French machines de guerre) to "all weapons in this section" (French: toutes les armes décrites dans cette section) - i.e. regardless of troop type! - and any other weapon mounted on a war machine - i.e. because of the troop type!- "have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules." The French version unequivocally states that the Ironcurse Icon applies to "machines de guerre" - i.e. the troop type.
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Post by thegoat on Aug 1, 2023 23:51:29 GMT
I have no idea what distinction you are trying to make nor why you think the French version is the definitive version of the rules.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 1, 2023 23:59:04 GMT
There is no definitive language version of the rules - not even the English one. To paraphrase pope Innocentius III: Regula superiorem non recognoscens in suo regno imperator. In theory, each language reigns supreme in its territory. But everyone should agree that each language version is playing the same game. So, if a particular language version has clearer wording on an issue, we can use that as guidance.
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Post by thegoat on Aug 2, 2023 0:08:31 GMT
There is no definitive language version of the rules - not even the English one. To paraphrase pope Innocentius III: Regula superiorem non recognoscens in suo regno imperator. In theory, each language reigns supreme in its territory. But everyone should agree that each language version is playing the same game. So, if a particular language version has clearer wording on an issue, we can use that as guidance. I cannot disagree more. The English version of the rules is the original and definitive version. All other language versions are translations based on the English version. The translators may or may not have accurately captured the original intention. if there is any discrepancy between versions, the English version trumps all others.
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Post by DiscoQing on Aug 2, 2023 7:14:22 GMT
kaptplanetMy group and every single tournament I've been to, plays Ironcurse Icon with this caveat: If the shooting unit fires like a "war machine weapon", the Ironcurse Icon bearer(s) unit gains the 6+ ward save.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 2, 2023 8:37:51 GMT
I cannot disagree more. The English version of the rules is the original and definitive version. All other language versions are translations based on the English version. The translators may or may not have accurately captured the original intention. if there is any discrepancy between versions, the English version trumps all others. As pointed out several times in the past, non-English language versions are sometimes more accurate than the English version. They can contain mistakes not in the English version, but also omit mistakes made in the English version, which indicates that they are not simple translations of the English BRB. To give three examples from the French version I have encountered so far: To add another, more fundamental example where the French version is superior: the English version uses "wounds" ("wounded," "to suffer wounds", "wounds caused" or "wounds inflicted" etc.) for both wounds that can yet be saved and actual wounds, leading to all kinds of confusion. The French version makes a clear distinction between blessure (wound before saves) and Point de Vie perdu (Life Point lost, i.e. wound after saves), avoiding all the confusion of the English wording. For WFB, there never was a general statement about the precedence of the English version over the foreign language versions. For tournaments, the TO decided, but, usually, that amounted to the precedence of the local language version (if there was one, and depending on how international they wanted to be). Edit: The German version also has just "Kriegsmaschinen" (war machines) here. Which, come to think of it, is ultimately also what the English versions says, since a "war machine weapon," is, if anything, "a weapon of a war machine" - and not of a chariot, monster or whatnot. Edit 2: The Tomb Kings FAQ quoted above erroneously calls the item "Ironcurse Amulet" instead of "Ironcurse Icon." The French and German versions of the FAQ have the correct name.
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karnus
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by karnus on Aug 2, 2023 10:06:11 GMT
Hey guys, Does the ironcurse icon provide a ward save against non warmachine troop types that fire warmachine weapons. Such as a stegadon, hellcanon or cygor? It seems to me that they would because they fire following the rules of a warmachine weapon? I think regardless of what it said in English, German or Cajun French - if you tried to get away with that in a game you’d be laughed out of there. Play the game, have fun, don’t try and rules lawyer your way to something unreasonable (or let your opponent do so).
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 2, 2023 16:06:02 GMT
karnus : That is a bit harsh. By issuing the Ogre FAQ, GW itself opened the way to pose the question for other systems. The ETC FAQ (2015) allowed it (although some say they do not play Warhammer anyway...): while the Warhammer Austrian Championships FAQ (2011) forbade it: but in 2012 and 2013, they switched to ETC. Many tournaments, provided they even have their own FAQ, simply do not address the question. And if it has ever been raised by the players during such a tournament, the result can only be an ad hoc decision by the TO.
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karnus
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by karnus on Aug 2, 2023 16:31:35 GMT
karnus : That is a bit harsh. By issuing the Ogre FAQ, GW itself opened the way to pose the question for other systems. The ETC FAQ (2015) allowed it (although some say they do not play Warhammer anyway...): while the Warhammer Austrian Championships FAQ (2011) forbade it: but in 2012 and 2013, they switched to ETC. Many tournaments, provided they even have their own FAQ, simply do not address the question. And if it has ever been raised by the players during such a tournament, the result can only be an ad hoc decision by the TO. That’s ultimately the correct answer though, the most important thing is to keep the game moving and keep the dice rolling. I can’t find it but I believe it even states in the rules that if you can’t agree on an interpretation of the rules you roll off as it’s the fairest way.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 2, 2023 16:40:16 GMT
It is the "Most Important Rule" (BRB p. 2): That is exactly why such questions need to be asked before or after a game (for instance here on EEFL), to limit the likelihood of such situations occurring and keep the game moving without the need to dice it off. One cannot fault kaptplanet for doing exactly that.
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