|
|
Post by 1plussave on Oct 21, 2023 18:25:22 GMT
As I understand it VHS swaps your Profile specifically with whoever you challenge, but not a mount if thats the only thing left. Seeing as it specifies Profile I am under the Impression that this ignores buffs, debuffs and enemy magic items and rules that aren't already included in the profile. Switching only base characteristics.
In the case of an Arch Lector wielding the Warrior Bane as well, this should mean an enemy is given his 2 attacks base. In a scenario where the enemy is wounded once with the Bane are they reduced to a single base attack? Can the Lector reduce the enemies Attacks even further, capped at -1 during their fight, but lowered by more on the off chance they escape the Challenge alive? Does a character with a magic weapon that grants more attacks lose attacks down to one, or does the magic weapon factor in separately from the profile, is it the same for an additional hand weapon?
I'm trying to avoid cheating people out of attacks, if I attack a guy who has the Sword of Strife, if he started with 3 attacks, is dropped to 2 during the Challenge by VHS and adds 2 up to 4 again from the Sword can they lose 1 attack, 2, 3 or 4? With a minimum of 1 regardless of how many he started with or loses.
Edit: Does an undead or daemonic unit champion who gets killed and resurrected lose an attack permanently?
Edit Edit: If I kill the Green Knight with the Tormentor sword does he come back Stupid?
|
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 21, 2023 21:23:05 GMT
The characteristic on the profile is the characteristic on the profile as given in the Army List Entry. The Speculum simply switches the characteristics on the profile, which are then subject to any boni or mali (permanent or not) than may apply.
Regarding the edit questions: they are not addressed as such anywhere in the rules, but I should think death should end any boni or mali (permanent or not), and resurrection should not be affected by either.
|
|
|
|
Post by 1plussave on Oct 21, 2023 21:30:53 GMT
The characteristic on the profile is the characteristic on the profile as given in the Army List Entry. The Speculum simply switches the characteristics on the profile, which are then subject to any boni or mali (permanent or not) than may apply. Regarding the edit questions: they are not addressed as such anywhere in the rules, but I should think death should end any boni or mali (permanent or not), and resurrection should not be affected by either. The questions thats bugging me is whether the -1A "stacks" for example up to -3 on a model that has 4 wounds and 2 attacks, does he have 1 Attack if he has a +2A sword or does he have 3 attacks. And barring evidence to the contrary I think I must insist that any effect listed as "permanently" or "for the rest of the game" is going to haunt you after death and respawn timer. This is not Holy Matrimony, its Warhammer. |
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 21, 2023 21:53:32 GMT
As said before: the characteristic on the profile is (rather self-evidently) the characteristic on the profile. So, you switch the characteristic on the profile, and then add any boni or mali. Permanent boni or mali (again rather self-evidently) will have to be applied permanently, after the switch.
And regarding the edit questions, your position could well be correct, but BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.13 indicates that at least boni (in casu charge boni) for resurrected models are lost, even if they would be normally entitled to them:
Q: If models are resurrected in a unit that has charged that turn, do the resurrected models count as having charged? (Reference)
A: No, but remember that the unit will still count as having charged when working out the combat result.
If it applies to boni, it should apply to mali as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by 1plussave on Oct 22, 2023 0:41:34 GMT
As said before: the characteristic on the profile is (rather self-evidently) the characteristic on the profile. So, you switch the characteristic on the profile, and then add any boni or mali. Permanent boni or mali (again rather self-evidently) will have to be applied permanently, after the switch. And regarding the edit questions, your position could well be correct, but BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.13 indicates that at least boni ( in casu charge boni) for resurrected models are lost, even if they would be normally entitled to them: Q: If models are resurrected in a unit that has charged that turn, do the resurrected models count as having charged? (Reference) A: No, but remember that the unit will still count as having charged when working out the combat result. If it applies to boni, it should apply to mali as well. Now that FAQ may matter, it also may not. Its so very specific doesn't directly cover what happens if you add new models to a unit that haven't specifically been resurrected. |
|
pete
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by pete on Oct 22, 2023 15:16:12 GMT
In terms of resurrected models the Skaven faq also has its say:
Q: What happens to characters that either join or leave a unit affected Wither? Are new models that are added to the unit by spells and special rules affected by the spell?(p79)
A: All models that either join or leave the unit are affected by the spell. If a character leaves and joins another unit, he is affected by the spell, but the unit he joins is not.
I also feel that if a model hasn’t charged, because it was resurrected, then of course it wouldn’t count as charging. Eg looking at the rules for a lance:
A lance is only used in a turn in which the wielder charged into combat. In subsequent turns (or if the wielder did not charge) the model uses its hand weapon.
It specifically talks about the wielder charging, not the unit.
As a final point, and without trying to be facetious, unless specified otherwise, normal rules apply. So if the rule says, till the end of the game (Tormentor Sword), that’s what it means. And if the rule says permanently (Warrior Bane), then each time you bring back Tyrion to another battle, even on a different day, he has one fewer attacks!
|
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 23, 2023 21:09:39 GMT
pete: I am afraid, in terms of resurrected models, the Skaven FAQ has nothing to say. It has something to say about models that can join and leave units - which is not the case here. On a more general note: as I have pointed out in earlier threads, this FAQ (in true Skaven fashion) wants to eat its cake and keep it. It is not a RiP spell (in which case it could be dispelled in later turns), but it purports to be an exception to normal spells (including those with similar wording, like Plague of Rust), where models are only affected, if they are targeted at the time the spell is cast. Regarding charging: units, not individual models (unless, of course they are units themselves) are declaring and executing charges. Normally, rules that apply to the unit apply to all models in the unit. So, the fact that resurrected models do not count as charging is only due to the FAQ. That said, "unless specified otherwise, normal rules apply" is a strong argument. In any case, the whole issue is likely to be a very rare occurrence.
|
|
pete
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by pete on Oct 24, 2023 18:10:35 GMT
Given the context of the question asked in the Skaven faq I think it is safe to say that it is referring to resurrected models. Given the wider context of it being the Skaven faq I have to agree that it is irrelevant. So long as no one is able to stomp on mixed units of giant rats and pack masters, right?
I just hope you are around to guide us for when GW inevitably balls’ up The Old World rules…
|
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on Oct 25, 2023 21:44:33 GMT
I appreciate your appreciation. I trust you'll forgive me, then, for being my pedantic self, when I maintain that the Skaven FAQ has no bearing on resurrected models.
I assume you base your assumption on the second part of the question: "Are new models that are added to the unit by spells and special rules affected by the spell?"
However, resurrected models are not new models added, but old models resurrected (as in "re-surrected"). The various resurrection rules (BRB Regrowth, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts) all contain the wording "restore lost Wounds," "Wounds regained," and (generally) the restriction "a unit cannot be taken beyond its starting size" (anything beyond would indeed be adding new models).
So, what is that second part referring to? Well, spells/special rules like the Skitterleap spell or the Hidden special rule of Assassins (to stick with Skaven). That is, in fact, confirmed by the answer: "All models that either join or leave the unit are affected by the spell. If a character leaves and joins another unit, he is affected by the spell, but the unit he joins is not." Joining and leaving units is restricted to characters and some other models (like the Cauldron of Blood). R&F models can never join or leave units. To join a unit, you must be able to exist separately beforehand, and to leave a unit, you must be able to exist separately afterwards.
|
|
pete
New Member
Posts: 29
|
Post by pete on Oct 27, 2023 9:48:44 GMT
After, basically, deciding to agree with you and re-reading each post several times to ensure that I was not going to make more mistakes, I have decided to disagree with you even though you are right. Let me explain.
I was struck by your last comment about ‘joining and leaving units’, and it got me thinking (…dangerous, I know).
There are two parts to the question; one about characters and one about models. If we focus on the models:
Q: Are new models that are added to the unit by spells and special rules affected by the spell?
A: All models that either join or leave the unit are affected by the spell.
If we assume they have answered the question then the answer could be rewritten more concisely as:
A: All models that are added to the unit by spells and special rules are affected by the spell.
Not just new ones.
However, and I can see it now, this faq has no bearing on the original question about whether resurrected models keep their boni or mali. Any model (withered or not) added to the unit will be affected by the spell whether it comes back cured or otherwise. (Also, a character will not be double withered if it leaves and re-enters an affected unit.)
Please feel free to continue to be as pedantic as you like as this is what we need in order to get to the correct interpretation.
|
|
