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Post by tileag on Dec 28, 2023 18:50:25 GMT
How have you found the Standard of the Undying Legion to work with the Tomb Guard? Do you think it has paid off in more games than not? I personally found that I struggled to get utility from it due to shortage of powerdice (nice bound spells on Casket and Heirotitan would take precedence) as my actual Hierophant spell options meant it was better to take 3 extra tomb guard. Does your opponent ever fail fear tests? These can help vs Bretonia depending on how he deploys/plays. His Bsb cannot be everywhere. I think it works pretty well but I usually either dont use it due to running out of dice, so I think I should probably swap it out. With those points Ill take some magic items on the lvl4 liche priest. Somehow he rarely fails fear checks. Now I am not sure if he is playing this rule correctly but the peasants get the leadership of any bretonnian knight unit within 6" of them so if those knights are also in range of the general the peasants are also ld10. Even his skaven pass their fear checks because he spreads frenzy out on 3 unit and just doesnt fight with the clan rats he uses. Myabe I am putting my stuff too close together making it easy for him to concentrate on my central things. I should probably correct myself and say that the tomb guard last on average one turn. but once im down to two ranks its game over for them. I get charged by both is grail knight unit and questing knight unit and when on the charge its quite devastating along with any shooting from the previous turn. Basically he shoots them till I have taken enough damage to be broken, and sits just inside my max charge range of 16". The unit I made above would hold off for at least two turns if it was a straight fight without shooting but against skaven its a slug fest of just taking wounds till he eventually beats me due to the bell giving the whole unit supporting attacks. Then I have to try and actually kill the bell with them since its unbreakable and wont flee. Against empire its kinda the same way but he will have a level 4 lore of light wizard and also a lvl 2 lore of life and the tomb guard with no armor is taking raw damage, being hit on 3s with the luminarch near by makes it even easier for him to put out the damage. Hes playing the peasants duty rule wrong A unit with the Peasant's Duty may use the Leadership of a nearby unit of knights. If that unit of knights is within 12" of the General, but the Peasants are not themselves within 12" of the General, can the peasants use the boosted Leadership of the knights (i.e. the General’s Leadership)? (p42) No. Source: Bretonnia Official Update Version 1.6, p. 3
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Post by drsentry on Dec 29, 2023 13:01:45 GMT
I think it works pretty well but I usually either dont use it due to running out of dice, so I think I should probably swap it out. With those points Ill take some magic items on the lvl4 liche priest. Somehow he rarely fails fear checks. Now I am not sure if he is playing this rule correctly but the peasants get the leadership of any bretonnian knight unit within 6" of them so if those knights are also in range of the general the peasants are also ld10. Even his skaven pass their fear checks because he spreads frenzy out on 3 unit and just doesnt fight with the clan rats he uses. Myabe I am putting my stuff too close together making it easy for him to concentrate on my central things. I should probably correct myself and say that the tomb guard last on average one turn. but once im down to two ranks its game over for them. I get charged by both is grail knight unit and questing knight unit and when on the charge its quite devastating along with any shooting from the previous turn. Basically he shoots them till I have taken enough damage to be broken, and sits just inside my max charge range of 16". The unit I made above would hold off for at least two turns if it was a straight fight without shooting but against skaven its a slug fest of just taking wounds till he eventually beats me due to the bell giving the whole unit supporting attacks. Then I have to try and actually kill the bell with them since its unbreakable and wont flee. Against empire its kinda the same way but he will have a level 4 lore of light wizard and also a lvl 2 lore of life and the tomb guard with no armor is taking raw damage, being hit on 3s with the luminarch near by makes it even easier for him to put out the damage. Hes playing the peasants duty rule wrong A unit with the Peasant's Duty may use the Leadership of a nearby unit of knights. If that unit of knights is within 12" of the General, but the Peasants are not themselves within 12" of the General, can the peasants use the boosted Leadership of the knights (i.e. the General’s Leadership)? (p42) No. Source: Bretonnia Official Update Version 1.6, p. 3 Thank you! I will let him know in our next game and show him the FAQ.
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Post by fleisch on Dec 29, 2023 15:56:50 GMT
My group gives TK 2700 points in 2500 games and that feels fair. I don't play TK personally but the 2700p lists my friend tried that are somewhat strong are sphinx spam + death or light council + shooting.
Disregarding extra points and the mentioned builds here are some thoughts on your list:
- Maybe add arcane items? You have two empty slots so try Neferra’s Scrolls, Power stone, dispell scroll, scroll of shielding... etc. Makes your magic phase a lot more reliable.
- Tomb guard without strong light magic support isn't scary. Imo you need a L4 light to make the ~600 points investment even remotely worth it. But maybe a second L2 with light and a powerstone will do.
- Some horse archer units for blocking/redirecting and to threaten the enemy backline would be nice. You could make room by cutting down on archers and not taking spears on skellis. 30 archers will do and spears on skellis are not worth it, as they are mainly just a cheap tarpit. Also musician/banner on chariots is not that important, unless you need the flamming banner.
- One screaming skull catapult is probably too unreliable. I mean one is still nice, but I would try a second L2 and arcane items instead and see if thats better.
I think the main problems here are that A) TK without extra points are weak and B) in your current list you have a 600 points block that I would imagine doesn't hold up. I suggest you ask the players you are struggeling against If they are okay with extra points. With 100 extra points you could do a L4/second L2 with light and some arcane items. Otherwise try dropping the catapult.
(Extra points may sound weird at first but I've found giving struggeling armies 100-200 points makes playing and playing against them a lot more fun.)
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Post by drsentry on Jan 2, 2024 16:19:35 GMT
My group gives TK 2700 points in 2500 games and that feels fair. I don't play TK personally but the 2700p lists my friend tried that are somewhat strong are sphinx spam + death or light council + shooting.
Disregarding extra points and the mentioned builds here are some thoughts on your list:
- Maybe add arcane items? You have two empty slots so try Neferra’s Scrolls, Power stone, dispell scroll, scroll of shielding... etc. Makes your magic phase a lot more reliable.
- Tomb guard without strong light magic support isn't scary. Imo you need a L4 light to make the ~600 points investment even remotely worth it. But maybe a second L2 with light and a powerstone will do.
- Some horse archer units for blocking/redirecting and to threaten the enemy backline would be nice. You could make room by cutting down on archers and not taking spears on skellis. 30 archers will do and spears on skellis are not worth it, as they are mainly just a cheap tarpit. Also musician/banner on chariots is not that important, unless you need the flamming banner.
- One screaming skull catapult is probably too unreliable. I mean one is still nice, but I would try a second L2 and arcane items instead and see if thats better.
I think the main problems here are that A) TK without extra points are weak and B) in your current list you have a 600 points block that I would imagine doesn't hold up. I suggest you ask the players you are struggeling against If they are okay with extra points. With 100 extra points you could do a L4/second L2 with light and some arcane items. Otherwise try dropping the catapult.
(Extra points may sound weird at first but I've found giving struggeling armies 100-200 points makes playing and playing against them a lot more fun.)
Using extra points is something I have been wanting to try for a while now but my friend who plays all the op stuff fights it. I could just never figure out a balanced way to implement it at different point levels, I know some tournaments would let tk players have an extra 499 and some would do less than that. Ill try asking him again or just play with my brother or gf with an increased points. I do agree that I would need some more magic items, but i decided to increase my infantry units size due to them getting obliterated in one turn. I usually give them spears just so they are a little more dangerous. I guess its a question between damage output and survivability, but I rarely find myself making any parry saves on the unit. The reason why I dont have any redirectors in my army is because none of my opponents use them. My brothers Orcs and Goblins make use of them but when I am playing against my friend they get shot immediately and die so the meta he created doesnt really allow those units to do anything. When I made this list I was thinking about dropping the necrotect for another wizard but I just think the hatred is too valuable to pass up for a spell that may or may not work when needed. I would probably use my extra points for a level 2 light wizard and hope I get time warp or speed of light.
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Post by jukei on Jan 2, 2024 18:06:59 GMT
No extra points needed mate.
We do not serve ...we rule!
Maybe try something like this
MAGIC
Khatep + Liche priest lev 1 dispel scroll+ casket of souls + hierotitan
this is a really solid setup.
we will have all the spells from nehek lore and all the bonus given by additional dice and d3 bonus to cast.
FIGHT
Warsphinx + 6 necropolis Knights Full command + 3 chariots banner of eternal flame + 59 archers ( tomb king with ironcurse icon and all the protection you prefer. He will provide WS 6 to our huge block of skeletons which, if supported by magic, can hold and also do some damage )
CHAFF 5 horseman ( cheapest chaff- needed to delay opponent and buy us time for additional pew pew)
BUNKER 15 skeletons warriors ( for our 2 wizards ) well hidden behind
WARMACHINE HUNTERS ( and not only ) 3 sepulchral stalkers
Think about this list please. write in case you wish to know more about it. just my 2 cent :-)
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Post by drsentry on Jan 2, 2024 20:16:25 GMT
No extra points needed mate. We do not serve ...we rule! Maybe try something like this MAGIC Khatep + Liche priest lev 1 dispel scroll+ casket of souls + hierotitan this is a really solid setup. we will have all the spells from nehek lore and all the bonus given by additional dice and d3 bonus to cast. FIGHT Warsphinx + 6 necropolis Knights Full command + 3 chariots banner of eternal flame + 59 archers ( tomb king with ironcurse icon and all the protection you prefer. He will provide WS 6 to our huge block of skeletons which, if supported by magic, can hold and also do some damage ) CHAFF 5 horseman ( cheapest chaff- needed to delay opponent and buy us time for additional pew pew) BUNKER 15 skeletons warriors ( for our 2 wizards ) well hidden behind WARMACHINE HUNTERS ( and not only ) 3 sepulchral stalkers Think about this list please. write in case you wish to know more about it. just my 2 cent :-) I will have to try something like this, it is very interesting. I dont have 6 necro knights so I will proxy the last 3 but ill see how this will fair. Do you think its worth swapping khatep for khalida? and taking a lvl 4 nehek wizard
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Post by jukei on Jan 2, 2024 20:52:52 GMT
I am glad you find this armylist interesting! Your list is cool but I think there are some problems 1) you have 3 blocks of infantry ( archers , warriors, and guards ) the army is ok but very slow. Tomb guards are great but very expensive ( with Tomb King and necro) and generally people avoid this unit and kill all the rest of our army or charge our elite unit with all they have and it's the end for us. 2) I can tell you that 40 skeletons unit + 40 skeleton archers are not big enough. I consider the unit reliable when it's +50 but better +58 and some Lords or heroes to buff our WS.
Khalida list has to be built differently because we need more chaff for slowing down opponent's units and shoot more targets we can. if you swap khalida for khatep you will need to downgrade Tomb king to Prince
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Post by jukei on Jan 2, 2024 21:09:03 GMT
you can try something like this
LORDS Khalida High Priest Lev 4 tal preserv WS 4+
HEROES PRINCE great weapon and 50 pts of protection
CORE 57 archers 5 horse archers 5 horse archers 5 horsemen 5 horsemen
SPECIAL Warsphinx 6 Snakes Knights 3x Sepulchral Stalkers
RARE Hierotitan Casket of souls
ok no dispel scroll but khalida unit can hurt from distance and hold in melee they have WS 5 ( for the Prince) REG 6+ khalida and the Liche are in the corner of the unit . the liche has a WS 4+
magic is still strong ! in melee we can count on some interesting units
Hierotitan is a body guard of archers ..so use it as last "chaff" before they reach our khalida unit we have lot of chaff ...2 units are also scout.
we have enough target saturation .... ( warshinx , Hierotitan, casket of souls + 6 snakes) He cannot kill all and ...we have our medusa stalkers...ready n the sand.
Maybe 57 archers can be considered not so many .It can be true. But keep in mind we won't win only with shooting and we need to invest also in units which can win in melee ( even without magical support)
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Post by drsentry on Jan 2, 2024 21:49:37 GMT
you can try something like this LORDS Khalida High Priest Lev 4 tal preserv WS 4+ HEROES PRINCE great weapon and 50 pts of protection CORE 57 archers 5 horse archers 5 horse archers 5 horsemen 5 horsemen SPECIAL Warsphinx 6 Snakes Knights 3x Sepulchral Stalkers RARE Hierotitan Casket of souls ok no dispel scroll but khalida unit can hurt from distance and hold in melee they have WS 5 ( for the Prince) REG 6+ khalida and the Liche are in the corner of the unit . the liche has a WS 4+ magic is still strong ! in melee we can count on some interesting units Hierotitan is a body guard of archers ..so use it as last "chaff" before they reach our khalida unit we have lot of chaff ...2 units are also scout. we have enough target saturation .... ( warshinx , Hierotitan, casket of souls + 6 snakes) He cannot kill all and ...we have our medusa stalkers...ready n the sand. Maybe 57 archers can be considered not so many .It can be true. But keep in mind we won't win only with shooting and we need to invest also in units which can win in melee ( even without magical support) Thats quite the list. So how would I use the horse men to stall for the archers?
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Post by jukei on Jan 2, 2024 22:05:45 GMT
2 units of horse archers are scout . this will help us to solve the problem of our slowness. (if we have enough space to deploy them not so far from one War machine we can even try to charge it as soon as we can and keep it "busy "at least for a turn)
Generally I sacrifice chaff positioning them between the enemy troop and the unit I want to protect ( archers in this case) I position the chaff in a way that either - the enemy has to move for avoiding it and try to charge later - charge them but in this case they are positioned bit "oblique" so once enemy unit charges It has to "close the door" and, after winning the combat, cannot overrun in my archers unit but has to reform and try to charge later ( and so I buy precious time)
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Post by jukei on Jan 24, 2024 18:45:39 GMT
No extra points needed mate. We do not serve ...we rule! Maybe try something like this MAGIC Khatep + Liche priest lev 1 dispel scroll+ casket of souls + hierotitan this is a really solid setup. we will have all the spells from nehek lore and all the bonus given by additional dice and d3 bonus to cast. FIGHT Warsphinx + 6 necropolis Knights Full command + 3 chariots banner of eternal flame + 59 archers ( tomb king with ironcurse icon and all the protection you prefer. He will provide WS 6 to our huge block of skeletons which, if supported by magic, can hold and also do some damage ) CHAFF 5 horseman ( cheapest chaff- needed to delay opponent and buy us time for additional pew pew) BUNKER 15 skeletons warriors ( for our 2 wizards ) well hidden behind WARMACHINE HUNTERS ( and not only ) 3 sepulchral stalkers Think about this list please. write in case you wish to know more about it. just my 2 cent :-) I will have to try something like this, it is very interesting. I dont have 6 necro knights so I will proxy the last 3 but ill see how this will fair. Do you think its worth swapping khatep for khalida? and taking a lvl 4 nehek wizard eefl.freeforums.net/thread/3594/army-sand-tk-2500-pts
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Post by knoffles on Jan 30, 2024 18:48:47 GMT
I’m late to the thread but I’ve really only seen TK played effectively with two builds: the Khaleda and 60 odd archer block or the magic build with 2 lvl 4’s, plenty of arcane items to boost effectiveness further, casket, heirotitan and then multiple archers etc. The second is the one most seen in competitive play and you should be able to get magic dominance, especially with the Titan and casket.
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