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WYSIWYG
Feb 14, 2017 1:54:35 GMT
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Post by Anaris on Feb 14, 2017 1:54:35 GMT
I like my knights with ensorceled blades...unless lances are the way your models look then you have to go with that. Is this enforced throughout here? Like for me a lot of models have some options, but only come modeled one way. Or if I want to save money, I use some proxies. Like for Orcs I have some armed with 2 hw, a shield and hw, some with Spears, but if I want to run them all as the same thing, my front 2 rows are all the same thing so that's what they are, the back rows are random Orcs, still all orc boys just differently modeled gear. Also I have wood elf glade guard archers that I use for my high elf shadow warriors. Also one more thing. In tournaments is the WYSIWYG that set in stone? FYI WYSIWYG = What You See Is What You Get
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Post by Naitsabes on Feb 14, 2017 3:29:13 GMT
whatever you and your gaming buddies decide is the law of your land. Personally, I find what you describe for the orcs totally reasonable. Your aim should be not to confuse your opponent. So glade guard archers as shadow warriors also fine by me.
For the knights it's a bit different as it is confusing. It could work if for example you play the same three guys over and over. After a few years they should remember what those knights carry. Or if you constantly remind your opponent that they have ensorcelled weapons in particular when he is moving over his ethereal creatures to block you. But, if for example you have multiple units modeled with lances but only one actually has ensorcelled weapons or if you constantly switch the weapons load-out on the same models it can get a bit fishy.
You could full bore hobby and magnetize the weapon arms...
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Post by Horace on Feb 14, 2017 10:23:30 GMT
I dont really play WYSIWYG, if possible it is best to have things modeled but I don't expect someone to have a different version of the same model for every weapon option. I also like to mix my lists around. Knights with lances/ensorcelled blades are a great example, I would be happy with my opponent choosing either option as long as they made a point of telling me at the start of the game.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 14, 2017 14:31:55 GMT
I like WYSIWYG. But my minis are nowhere near 100% WYSIWYG.
I think unit fillers that aren't WYSIWYG is fine, as long as the front rank is WYSIWYG. I think proxies that are pretty close is fine by me, but I have seen that cheese folks off. I think non-GW stuff that looks 90% like the unit it represents is extremely common and normal. In my armies, it borders on widespread.
It's normally only an issue for smaller units. Typically, small units of knights or skirmishers or monstrous cavalry.
Assume a unit of 50 dudes have great weapons per your army list. I kill like 43 of them. I killed all 43 that are actually miniatures holding huge double handed axes. Of the seven models left, 3 and command and 4 happen to not be minis modeled with great weapons. If I charge in that unit and in the first round of combat you say "No those dudes have big axes, not S4, they're S6" Well, I could see that making a difference to the game and maybe even making me sad.
I mean, it is my mistake - I am the one that charged in there. But if I did so in error or based on miscommunication or based on misrepresentation, that's poor form.
Of if you are using old single piece plastic wood elf archers to represent High Elf Shadow Warriors. Well, that's pretty close. I think it's fine - but remind me, won't you? I can think of scenarios where 10 basic elf archers wouldn't break an opposing unit they charged but a unit of 10 Shadow Warriors might. Typically these are pretty close math wise (MathHammer!) but I have been boned by forgetting what proxies are before. It doesn't make the game more fun.
Don't misread me here: I love proxies and I think proxies are fun!
TL; DR If you use proxies or aren't 100% WYSIWYG, be overly friendly and overly communicative to your opponent. Take the extra 3 seconds to remind him/her that a unit has great weapons.
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Post by vulcan on Feb 14, 2017 21:15:22 GMT
In general you're not going to see many WE archers in a HE army, not much room for confusion there!
In the end, that's the issue with WYSIWYG: can your not-quite (or not even close to) WYSIWYG minis going to confuse someone?
If the answer is yes, then you might have a problem.
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WYSIWYG
Feb 14, 2017 21:36:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by Anaris on Feb 14, 2017 21:36:59 GMT
Ok,thanks for the responses, how about in tournaments though? Is it black and white or are there shades of grey too? Well for me I don't really care for the shadow warriors models, I like the glade guard models and I tried modeling most of them with a hand weapon so it's similar to a actual shadow warrior. Plus I already bought a box for shadow warriors and made them into sister's of avelorn and for glade guard I get 16 models instead of 10 for shadow warriors
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Post by grandmasterwang on Feb 14, 2017 23:52:41 GMT
Ok,thanks for the responses, how about in tournaments though? Is it black and white or are there shades of grey too? Well for me I don't really care for the shadow warriors models, I like the glade guard models and I tried modeling most of them with a hand weapon so it's similar to a actual shadow warrior. Plus I already bought a box for shadow warriors and made them into sister's of avelorn and for glade guard I get 16 models instead of 10 for shadow warriors Shades of Grey in tournaments also. It's up to the tournament organisers how strictly they want to enforce WYSIWYG. I had a browse of the 9th age forums a while ago and there were people raging about a bathroom duck ornament which had been used as a skycutter chariot Imo so long as there is no confusion there is no worries.
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WYSIWYG
Feb 15, 2017 0:00:43 GMT
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Post by Anaris on Feb 15, 2017 0:00:43 GMT
Now see that's going to far, it's like in 40k people use water bottles or pop cans as drop pods, in a non tournament yeah you can use one if you don't have none or are trying it out.
In no tournaments should you be allowed to use a duck ornament as a sky cutter, I'm talking about models equipped with a certain weapon but you are using another. Like my prince on a dragon has the lance modeled because it's the coolest imo, I never use the lance though. I always use a magical weapon or a gw
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WYSIWYG
Feb 16, 2017 6:43:37 GMT
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Post by frozenfood on Feb 16, 2017 6:43:37 GMT
If all weapon options have to be available you either need a lot of money or a lot of magnets. We proxy like there is no tomorrow
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Post by gjnoronh on Feb 16, 2017 14:02:48 GMT
I think there is stuff that pushes the boundary and things that do not. Close is usually fine. Using wood elf archers as dryads for example is not acceptable. I don't think you need to worry too much about tournaments. Outside of Da Boyz you aren't going to find many.
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WYSIWYG
Feb 16, 2017 15:08:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by Anaris on Feb 16, 2017 15:08:40 GMT
I think there is stuff that pushes the boundary and things that do not. Close is usually fine. Using wood elf archers as dryads for example is not acceptable. I don't think you need to worry too much about tournaments. Outside of Da Boyz you aren't going to find many. Yeah you may be right, but I'm holding out for if Games Workshop comes back to its senses and breaths life into WFB. They have to bring it back, the community at large dislikes AoS. Yeah some people support AoS, but that's also because they love to play WH and that is what's current. It's like the only Warhammer that's actively supported is AoS. Games workshop was so stupid because Warhammer Total War came out based off WFB not AoS. They could have capitalized on that bringing in a new Flux of players. I think though because 8th edition was so great. There wasn't many changes to really make, yeah yeah I know there may have been a few that could be polished, but 8th edition warhammer fantasy was and still is a gem. And Games Workshop really couldn't have made a 9th edition worth it imo, without ruining stuff that was already great. I mean would people really justify spending $75 or whatever on 9th edition when maybe there was 1 or 2 pages of new or revised rules from 8th? That people already made fixes to or there was a FAQ? Sorry for going on like that lol wrong topic, but yeah I have hope GW will bring or go back to 8th edition. Or at least now because WFB is more or less "dead" they could have the AoS times settle on a new world similar to WFB, and go back and make a 9th edition. Since there has been a period of time between 8th and now. Plus the "new" players from AoS might follow and bring back some "old" WFB players! So to the point of my reply lol, yeah I'm still keeping tournaments in mind for modeling, if my dreams come true and WFB comes back.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Feb 16, 2017 15:42:45 GMT
I'll chime in about WYSIWYG as I've had strong opinions about this in my 20 years playing Warhammer. I build my army the way I would want my opponent to. That is to say that any unit should be armed (mostly) the way the unit spent its points. I do have a few exception models mixed into my units but fundamentally anyone looking at the unit would know what it is. Examples:
My skeleton spears have a unit filler (he's holding a spear) and a few dudes with halberds and another with a scythe. I've made sure that(except for the champion) each model has a 2 handed weapon and, if appropriate to the miniature, a shield.
My Empire swordsmen sometimes include a couple of guys that could be used as free company (no shields). In the mass of 40 bodies the overall look is guys with swords. There are no more than 5 "wrong" models in that regiment.
In my Khorne halberd/chosen unit I have a bloodletter (with 2 handed weapon) and a beastman with halberd. Someday I will have enough miniatures to have those 2 guys in their own respective units but today they are bodies in a larger Khorne regiment. The overall look of the unit to anyone looking would be "Khorne dudes with halberds and shields". That being said, I ALWAYS field this unit having paid for shields. Even when the points don't make sense. I would not want to look across the table and consider shooting at your men and think "those guys have shields". Even if you told me, "no shields on these guys", I would still not want "shields" in my head. I field my Empire halberds similarly. On occasion I use them without shields but that means I'm taking a smaller unit and I'm hiding the shield-armed models in the unit. I actually feel bad whenever I do this.
I recently put together a blood dragon vampire on a monster. After much deliberation I opted to model him with a lance because it looks much cooler. When he sees the battlefield, he will have to be armed with a lance. The only exception would perhaps be a magic weapon that behaves like a lance (+2 S perhaps) but I would probably not even do that. On the flip side, if I arm a mounted character with a sword he can NEVER be fielded in my army with a lance. NEVER.
Playing this way is tough, I get it. Look at it this way though. If you're still hanging around with 8th edition warhammer fantasy, you really love these models and probably have a decent collection that was too nice to get rid of or ignore.
The Stillman way of playing is to build a regiment and name it. It's armed the way it's modeled. Play with this unit as-is. The unit is not optimal in games? You've got options. Get better at using the unit. Give it a different role in your army. Add models (recruits) and give it more combat strength. Model a new unit to fill that role and designate said unit to the shelf for rare appearances and larger battles where you need to make points. I believe KevinC and I exemplify this the most in our group but I also see the Stillman spirit present in most of our campaign mates.
By all means, spend your money and hobby time how you'd like. Tournaments are mostly gone so much of this is up to your circle of gamers and what they tolerate.
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Post by Horace on Feb 16, 2017 17:44:10 GMT
It's not a matter of optimal or not for me, I just like to mix my lists around but don't have the time or inclination to paint different options. I'd rather spend the time adding another army to my collection
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 16, 2017 18:52:44 GMT
#TheStillmanWay #Stillmania
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Post by frozenfood on Feb 17, 2017 13:01:12 GMT
And making different lists is what I prefer about this hobby. It might also explain why I lose a lot but my opponent doesn't seem to object ;p
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