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Post by Anaris on Mar 16, 2017 13:30:42 GMT
Never seen them or played with or against them in 8th edition, but why are they actually bad? I've been watching battle reports with them from mini war gaming and they seem really good and beat chaos demons.
I have the army book and was reading through it and overall on paper it looks good.
What about it makes them bad? I know they do need an update still, but from what I've seen and read they appear better then beastmen at least.
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Post by gjnoronh on Mar 16, 2017 13:46:18 GMT
They are probably better then beastmen. They are pretty good when used well but the army design and magic item selection doesn't really reflect 8th ed principles IMO.
They are also a bit rock paper scissors because they are so dependent on breaking people on the charge. Before steadfast (so in sixth) they destroyed units and ran through to regroup on the other side of the battle line. In 8th with steadfast that's much harder particularly with anything less then a giant unit which makes them more tricky to use.
I also find they are very psychology sensitive, you can get some nice chain panics going with a flying terror causer in the flank of their line
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Mar 16, 2017 14:50:00 GMT
They are probably better then beastmen. As the one person in the world who is, as of March 2017, actively assembling and painting a beastmen army - Sad Panda. Sad, but true.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Mar 16, 2017 14:50:42 GMT
"At least we're not as bad as those guys" Literal bottom of the literal barrel.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 16, 2017 15:27:22 GMT
Never seen them or played with or against them in 8th edition, but why are they actually bad? I've been watching battle reports with them from mini war gaming and they seem really good and beat chaos demons. I have the army book and was reading through it and overall on paper it looks good. What about it makes them bad? I know they do need an update still, but from what I've seen and read they appear better then beastmen at least. In the hands of a skilled player they can be devastating and won 8th edition tournaments. However they lack versatility and have limited options, this is why people say they are bad. They can actually counter ogres quite nicely with longer charge range and knights being unstoppable. The Bretonian player I knew was annoyed when the Empire book came out with core knights and 1+armor save nights. Grail knights are very expensive for what they can do. Due to their selection limitations Bretonian armies can be hard countered which with internet hyperbole means they suck or something like that.
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Post by Horace on Mar 16, 2017 15:37:33 GMT
I think competitively (not that I ever took part in that) they are regarded as quite strong. I think it is more that the list is restricted in what you can use if you want something "viable & competitive" (if that is actually a thing) and the book is really just old and dated. A Brets 8th book would have been a really nice parting gift from GW for 8th
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Post by Anaris on Mar 16, 2017 15:46:28 GMT
Ok so I was watching a battle report and they had a huge horde of men at arms, they used their pole arms as spears and wounded pin 3+. But in the army book it says treat them as halberds. Is this accurate or one of mini war gaming many mistakes?
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Post by gjnoronh on Mar 16, 2017 16:52:21 GMT
Sounds like a mistake. Once Bitten on Youtube should have a good number of brettonian reports IIRC. Will I did pretty well with Beastmen in 8th at tournaments- there is a steep learning curve but you can get a lot out of them. Very Rock Paper Scissors as you can[t fit in the tools to deal with every list but you can really surprise people with them. here's a thread where I had an evolution of my thoughts over time when I was first developing the list z8.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=27247
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Post by frozenfood on Mar 16, 2017 18:21:09 GMT
I played Bretonnia twice against Beastmen and lost twice...want to play them again!
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Mar 16, 2017 18:53:01 GMT
In the hands of a skilled player they can be devastating and won 8th edition tournaments. Truth. There was a tourney in Elmira, NY and a Brets player won BEST GENERAL by a pretty good margin. It was a few years ago, but it was an 8th tourney. I can't recall what their modified rule pack was. Ref: "My little pony"
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Mar 16, 2017 18:55:06 GMT
Will I did pretty well with Beastmen in 8th at tournaments- there is a steep learning curve but you can get a lot out of them. Very Rock Paper Scissors as you can[t fit in the tools to deal with every list but you can really surprise people with them. Very cool. Will give that a full read tonight. Assume Beastmen are ROCK. Who are the scissors that we can reliably have a slightly better chance of beating? Who are the papers that have a better chance of beating the Beastmen?
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Post by Anaris on Mar 16, 2017 19:19:38 GMT
Assume Beastmen are ROCK. Who are the scissors that we can reliably have a slightly better chance of beating? No-one Who are the papers that have a better chance of beating the Beastmen? Every one Lol just kidding.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Mar 16, 2017 19:41:31 GMT
Why isn't anyone talking about the EEFL Bret army book? I am building a Bretonnian army from scratch because of the update. It's so cool.
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Post by gjnoronh on Mar 16, 2017 20:19:00 GMT
Very much depends on the build for your beastmen but for my list linked to above (a few MSU hitty bits, lots of MSU chaff): Scissors - WoC lists with the 'unkillable' daemon prince a unit of warriors a unit of skull crushers and a handful of chariots - reason the Ramhorn Gorbull matches up very nicely with the daemon prince and can usually grind him down. The Jabberslythe and Ghorgon do a good job against the chariots with leadership bomb effects. The beastmen chaff ties the rest of the WoC hitters up until you want to deal with them. Low shooting empire - you have the tools to handle armor and lots of state troops just generate lots of attacks for the rambull. Leadership bomb works okay. Lizards - usually not enough shooting to matter and usually at low strength though poison clouds can be a challenge. The rest of it the beasts can generally grind through. You can put some flying threats near the slann early if he isn't bunkered. If it's bunkered in gaurd you can usually out chaff it and pick off other points with the advantage beast chaff has against lizard chaff.
Rocks Shooting heavy empire lists - too much to get through. If backed by demigryphs they will kill all the beastmen combat troops one way or another before they do much. Elf (particularly High elf) combat lists - with ASF and an initiative advatange they are taking too many of the soft beast troops out before beasts swing. Eagles are even better chaff. Sometimes some leadership bomb stuff will tilt things in beasts favor if it happens early.
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Post by Baronthehumbled on Mar 16, 2017 21:46:14 GMT
Ok so I was watching a battle report and they had a huge horde of men at arms, they used their pole arms as spears and wounded pin 3+. But in the army book it says treat them as halberds. Is this accurate or one of mini war gaming many mistakes? Since they're technically bill-hooks rather than proper halberds most Bretonnian players just named them what they're using them as before they started the game. Also, 6th Bretonnia kits never had spears so unless you kitbashed with Empire you had just bill-hooks anyway. (My head-canon was that the peasants were to dim-witted to use them properly and my yeoman gave them a good thwack and either said "shield wall!" for spears or "stow ya' shields!" for halberds. ) In the hands of a skilled player they can be devastating and won 8th edition tournaments. Truth. There was a tourney in Elmira, NY and a Brets player won BEST GENERAL by a pretty good margin. It was a few years ago, but it was an 8th tourney. I can't recall what their modified rule pack was. Ref: "My little pony" Curse you, I had finally forgotten all about that abomination. -_- Why isn't anyone talking about the EEFL Bret army book? I am building a Bretonnian army from scratch because of the update. It's so cool. It is a great update but OP asked about 6th specifically. Feel free to educate him, though.
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