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Post by strutsagget on Nov 3, 2017 14:58:36 GMT
So what do people think needs balance or be avaoided if the goal is “fair” and fun games.
I am mostly thinking about playing against OnG, Dwarves, Skaven and maybe Empire.
DP
I have read that people remove souls feeder from thunderstomp amd unbreakable to stubborn. Or just avoid totally.
Right now we have a little bit to few games and little experiance to do anything(even broken stuff is fun) but I am starting to see a pattern.
EDIT:
Any other units or setup then DP people keep away from?
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Post by Horace on Nov 3, 2017 15:08:01 GMT
So what do people think needs balance or be avaoided if the goal is “fair” and fun games. I am mostly thinking about playing against OnG, Dwarves, Skaven and maybe Empire. DP I have read that people remove souls feeder from thunderstomp amd unbreakable to stubborn. Or just avoid totally. Right now we have a little bit to few games and little experiance to do anything(even broken stuff is fun) but I am starting to see a pattern. To me the WoC DP should have been Daemonically unstable like the DoC version. We don't house rule anything though. But the warriors book is ok if you don't approach it trying to construct the dirtiest list you can come up with. Ie unkillable DP and BSB with a chariot spam core etc Just put together a list which looks fun to play with, it will probably be fun to play against
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 3, 2017 15:28:57 GMT
Changing the DP from unbreakable to stubborn takes him from 'plain stupid' to 'still super-hard'. Especially in smaller games where any kind of rank bonus etc. to make him even roll on the stubborn leadership is harder to come by.
If you are starting to see a pattern, easy: leave out one of the units that just seems to rock too hard. Next game bring that unit back in, leave something else out. I think if you are a couple guys relatively new to the game, the one playing with WoC will generally be at an advantage until you guys have mastered the art of redirecting with chaff.
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Post by mottdon on Nov 3, 2017 16:05:10 GMT
I think that you're starting to see the potential problem with WoC. They can be an absolute nightmare for an opponent to face. You can make the DP (and other characters) as hard as you want. Who cares if he costs a lot of points if he is unkillable? That's points denial.
Basically, if you want a more balanced game, leave the DP at home. I've seen people substitute the DoC DP rules and that seemed to help, but he's still going to take cannon shots to take down most of the time. If you take a DP, you're forcing your opponent to take cannons and the game will be decided in the first two rounds. Period.
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Post by Horace on Nov 3, 2017 16:26:00 GMT
I don't think you need to leave him at home, just don't build him as dirty as you possibly can.
Just the same way not every vampire lord has to be a red fury blender
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Post by mottdon on Nov 3, 2017 19:24:08 GMT
I'm just saying, taking the DP will almost always ensure one type of game. Everybody will gun for him. I don't think that it's wrong to take a DP, but they will be cannon magnets every time. If you make it through the cannon ball storm, then you've probably won, unless you just play him without anything that'll help him.
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Post by Sunfangsunburn on Nov 3, 2017 20:00:42 GMT
I'm just saying, taking the DP will almost always ensure one type of game. Everybody will gun for him. I don't think that it's wrong to take a DP, but they will be cannon magnets every time. If you make it through the cannon ball storm, then you've probably won, unless you just play him without anything that'll help him. It does depend on the opposing army. With High Elves I love having a DP hit a unit with BOTWD or Pheonix Guard (especially with Caradryan).
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 3, 2017 20:18:15 GMT
I'm just saying, taking the DP will almost always ensure one type of game. Everybody will gun for him. I don't think that it's wrong to take a DP, but they will be cannon magnets every time. If you make it through the cannon ball storm, then you've probably won, unless you just play him without anything that'll help him. It does depend on the opposing army. With High Elves I love having a DP hit a unit with BOTWD or Pheonix Guard (especially with Caradryan). Yes but I believe HE is as strong as WoC so don’t think any fairness is needed in that matchup
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 3, 2017 21:52:28 GMT
The DP is amazing, but he isn't as good as the mighty 3++ rr1 Hortennse Chaos Lord! That Chaos Lord doesn't get nearly the attention as the DP, but competitively I would take him over the DP anytime!
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Post by Horace on Nov 3, 2017 22:29:18 GMT
The DP is amazing, but he isn't as good as the mighty 3++ rr1 Hortennse Chaos Lord! That Chaos Lord doesn't get nearly the attention as the DP, but competitively I would take him over the DP anytime! Yep he is another dirt bag
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 4, 2017 2:11:58 GMT
So what do people think needs balance or be avaoided if the goal is “fair” and fun games. I am mostly thinking about playing against OnG, Dwarves, Skaven and maybe Empire. DP I have read that people remove souls feeder from thunderstomp amd unbreakable to stubborn. Or just avoid totally. Right now we have a little bit to few games and little experiance to do anything(even broken stuff is fun) but I am starting to see a pattern. EDIT: Any other units or setup then DP people keep away from? Heh...Stubborn Instability, soulfeeder only working on actual attacks is how we play the WOC Daemon Prince. I don't actually have a problem with the 'unkillable' Chaos Lord builds because.. 1- they can be broken and run down 2- they can't spell cast 3- no thunderstomp so they don't have the same offensive/grinding ability against infantry and other stompables. 4- they don't cause terror so can be engaged by units without the flee risk ... maybe it's a dwarf thing...not minding 'unkillable' lords....... maybe drop them down to movement 3 😋
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Post by gjnoronh on Nov 4, 2017 2:24:15 GMT
DP only does so much Damage though hard to kill but stick him with a ranked unit and let him grind for most of the game. Even with thunder stomp usually not removing more then 1 to 1.5 ranks per round. Infantry are stubborn until the last round. I like to give him a Minotaur character to chew on in a ranked unit of i for spears. Usually I kill the DP. I always stress the opposing player out.
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Post by henning on Nov 4, 2017 3:20:42 GMT
Although I have had my fair share of headaches facing hard WoC lists, especially with my lizardmen, I don’t think they need comp. Every army has that one or two really strong and sometimes silly units so if we start comping WoC then where do you stop? It’s not for me personally and I feel if you take the time to think about said units then you can come up with a strategy to defeat them or mitigate their impact on the game.
If you are really adamant then just play swedish, ETC or some other comprehensive comp system or give your opponent a handicap and say they can take 200 points extra etc.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 4, 2017 5:27:19 GMT
The DP is amazing, but he isn't as good as the mighty 3++ rr1 Hortennse Chaos Lord! That Chaos Lord doesn't get nearly the attention as the DP, but competitively I would take him over the DP anytime! Yep he is another dirt bag But I love that dirt bag. As a defensively minded player, he holds a special place in my heart. I like to keep him around to neutralize enemy cheese. Fight fire with fire. Long live Hortennse! Although I can definitely see how others might not like him.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 4, 2017 5:30:06 GMT
I like to give him a Minotaur character to chew on in a ranked unit of i for spears. Usually I kill the DP. I always stress the opposing player out. He does fly however, so unless your opponent misplays him, the DP should be able to choose which combat to enter into to. The DP is a tough opponent, but he is not without his weakness. The unkillable Chaos Lord is more versatile in my opinion.
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