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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 4, 2017 5:37:18 GMT
I don't actually have a problem with the 'unkillable' Chaos Lord builds because.. 1- they can be broken and run down 2- they can't spell cast 3- no thunderstomp so they don't have the same offensive/grinding ability against infantry and other stompables. 4- they don't cause terror so can be engaged by units without the flee risk 1- The unkillable lord should be equipped with the Crown of Command. While stubborn leadership 9 is far from unbreakable, it is still pretty hard to break him (especially if there is a BSB around). 2- Very true, he needs to have a separate wizard backing him up. On the plus side, that prevents putting all your eggs into one basket. In the case of the DP, if he dies, you lose your general, best fighter and typically your primary wizard all in one go. 3- True he is not as effective at grinding down infantry units. That is definitely a consideration when choosing who to charge him into. He is a bit better against more elite non-stompable targets (assuming he is at S7 because of a GW) however. 4- True, but how many worthwhile units actually flee due to a failed terror test? It happens, but not very often. |
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 4, 2017 7:29:46 GMT
Is there any other unis then the unkillable builds that people keep away from in friendly games?
The pattern I think I have seen is the one mattdon talked about. If I bring an unkillable then my opponents will have to bring cannon and either it misses or one shots in first turns and it decide a lot of the game. Not saying its wrong but I don’t want every game to be played out that way.
Regarding WoC, what do people think is fun but maybe not too good and not plain bad. Not sure how to make/convert chosen and forsaken and don’t know if they are worth the time.
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 4, 2017 7:39:58 GMT
And regarding war machines. How do I build to challenge them with WoC?
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Post by Horace on Nov 4, 2017 9:05:12 GMT
In friendly games I tend not to build big deathstars (points denial), not that I really do them anyway  In terms of war machine counters, do you know who you are playing or are just after general counters? |
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Post by strutsagget on Nov 4, 2017 10:38:41 GMT
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 5, 2017 0:57:10 GMT
I don't actually have a problem with the 'unkillable' Chaos Lord builds because.. 1- they can be broken and run down 2- they can't spell cast 3- no thunderstomp so they don't have the same offensive/grinding ability against infantry and other stompables. 4- they don't cause terror so can be engaged by units without the flee risk 1- The unkillable lord should be equipped with the Crown of Command. While stubborn leadership 9 is far from unbreakable, it is still pretty hard to break him (especially if there is a BSB around). 2- Very true, he needs to have a separate wizard backing him up. On the plus side, that prevents putting all your eggs into one basket. In the case of the DP, if he dies, you lose your general, best fighter and typically your primary wizard all in one go. 3- True he is not as effective at grinding down infantry units. That is definitely a consideration when choosing who to charge him into. He is a bit better against more elite non-stompable targets (assuming he is at S7 because of a GW) however. 4- True, but how many worthwhile units actually flee due to a failed terror test? It happens, but not very often. I don't disagree with any of this, but it's the combination of it all (especially point 2) which makes the 'unkillable' Chaos lord more tolerable. Regarding point 4, vs the Daemon Prince, it's something which needs to be considered and as you say it's rare but happens, whereas vs the Chaos Lord you don't need to worry about it. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 5, 2017 1:02:12 GMT
Is there any other unis then the unkillable builds that people keep away from in friendly games? The pattern I think I have seen is the one mattdon talked about. If I bring an unkillable then my opponents will have to bring cannon and either it misses or one shots in first turns and it decide a lot of the game. Not saying its wrong but I don’t want every game to be played out that way. Regarding WoC, what do people think is fun but maybe not too good and not plain bad. Not sure how to make/convert chosen and forsaken and don’t know if they are worth the time. The only thing I can really think of is heavy Nurgle marked spam. A nurgle Gorebeast Chariot for example is very good for the points and the Nurgle mark is generally considered the most competitive. I mentioned the DP nerf we play with, we don't have any other 'restrictions' which we put on WOC. I actually prefer the OP Daemon Prince of the 8th edition WOC book to the flim flam for the points (275 if i recall for far worse stats) Daemon Prince of the 7th Edition WOC book. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 5, 2017 5:38:25 GMT
1- The unkillable lord should be equipped with the Crown of Command. While stubborn leadership 9 is far from unbreakable, it is still pretty hard to break him (especially if there is a BSB around). 2- Very true, he needs to have a separate wizard backing him up. On the plus side, that prevents putting all your eggs into one basket. In the case of the DP, if he dies, you lose your general, best fighter and typically your primary wizard all in one go. 3- True he is not as effective at grinding down infantry units. That is definitely a consideration when choosing who to charge him into. He is a bit better against more elite non-stompable targets (assuming he is at S7 because of a GW) however. 4- True, but how many worthwhile units actually flee due to a failed terror test? It happens, but not very often. I don't disagree with any of this, but it's the combination of it all (especially point 2) which makes the 'unkillable' Chaos lord more tolerable. Regarding point 4, vs the Daemon Prince, it's something which needs to be considered and as you say it's rare but happens, whereas vs the Chaos Lord you don't need to worry about it. I can't disagree with that, it is very true. The Daemon Prince definitely has some advantages over the unkillable lord. However there is a relatively abundant hard counter to the DP... warmachines. Cannons can end a DP with a fair amount of regularity, which is simply not the case for the Chaos Lord (they have to be VERY lucky to do so). So against some lists, the DP may very well cost you the game. The only real hard counter to the Chaos Lord are spells/items/abilities that destroy/negate magic items (as he is highly reliant on his ward save and his crown of command), however the these counters are far more rare and more difficult to pull off successfully. I guess it comes down to play style. I am very defensive player by nature, so the unkillable lord appeals to me. I often joke around saying that he has a special rule " Immune to Warhammer".  That said, I can definitely see the merit of the DP. There are instances where he is the superior choice. |
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Post by Horace on Nov 5, 2017 7:27:29 GMT
I don't disagree with any of this, but it's the combination of it all (especially point 2) which makes the 'unkillable' Chaos lord more tolerable. Regarding point 4, vs the Daemon Prince, it's something which needs to be considered and as you say it's rare but happens, whereas vs the Chaos Lord you don't need to worry about it. I can't disagree with that, it is very true. The Daemon Prince definitely has some advantages over the unkillable lord. However there is a relatively abundant hard counter to the DP... warmachines. Cannons can end a DP with a fair amount of regularity, which is simply not the case for the Chaos Lord (they have to be VERY lucky to do so). So against some lists, the DP may very well cost you the game. The only real hard counter to the Chaos Lord are spells/items/abilities that destroy/negate magic items (as he is highly reliant on his ward save and his crown of command), however the these counters are far more rare and more difficult to pull off successfully. I guess it comes down to play style. I am very defensive player by nature, so the unkillable lord appeals to me. I often joke around saying that he has a special rule " Immune to Warhammer". That said, I can definitely see the merit of the DP. There are instances where he is the superior choice. What about the unkillable DP? |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 5, 2017 19:21:45 GMT
I can't disagree with that, it is very true. The Daemon Prince definitely has some advantages over the unkillable lord. However there is a relatively abundant hard counter to the DP... warmachines. Cannons can end a DP with a fair amount of regularity, which is simply not the case for the Chaos Lord (they have to be VERY lucky to do so). So against some lists, the DP may very well cost you the game. The only real hard counter to the Chaos Lord are spells/items/abilities that destroy/negate magic items (as he is highly reliant on his ward save and his crown of command), however the these counters are far more rare and more difficult to pull off successfully. I guess it comes down to play style. I am very defensive player by nature, so the unkillable lord appeals to me. I often joke around saying that he has a special rule " Immune to Warhammer". That said, I can definitely see the merit of the DP. There are instances where he is the superior choice. What about the unkillable DP? With the Chaos Lord's ward save he would be unstoppable! WoC would be by far the strongest army in the game because of him alone. |
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Nov 9, 2017 12:46:57 GMT
I can't disagree with that, it is very true. The Daemon Prince definitely has some advantages over the unkillable lord. However there is a relatively abundant hard counter to the DP... warmachines. Cannons can end a DP with a fair amount of regularity, which is simply not the case for the Chaos Lord (they have to be VERY lucky to do so). So against some lists, the DP may very well cost you the game. The only real hard counter to the Chaos Lord are spells/items/abilities that destroy/negate magic items (as he is highly reliant on his ward save and his crown of command), however the these counters are far more rare and more difficult to pull off successfully. I guess it comes down to play style. I am very defensive player by nature, so the unkillable lord appeals to me. I often joke around saying that he has a special rule " Immune to Warhammer". That said, I can definitely see the merit of the DP. There are instances where he is the superior choice. What about the unkillable DP? I am totally adopting the phrase "Immune to Warhammer"! |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Nov 9, 2017 14:11:01 GMT
I am totally adopting the phrase "Immune to Warhammer"! Hahaha... I'm glad you like it!  |
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That said, I can definitely see the merit of the DP. There are instances where he is the superior choice.
