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Post by gjnoronh on Feb 16, 2018 2:40:18 GMT
Again my point was cavalry was overpowered in sixth and seventh ed and not overpowered in 8th. I agree steadfast absolutely intentionally reigned in the power of cavalry (and monsters.) that was one of the things I liked about 8th.
Empire cavalry bus was a common sight on top tables throughout 8th. Demigryphs and Skullcrushers as well. Brets were a bit underpowered. But as noted had success during 8th.
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Post by Snyggejygge on Feb 17, 2018 6:06:16 GMT
Let's math it out: 11 WS4/5 attacks attacking WS3 (usually how these matchups went down. also unit champ - Chaos knights/elite 2A knights. If the knights had 1A you'd see units of 6-7 knights for maximum attacks against a minimum frontage) 11*(2/3) = 7.3333 hits Those knights were usually S5+ due to lances/special rules 7.333*(5/6) = 6.111 dead (la/shield = no save) 5 horse attacks at WS3 (if higher then slightly better) 5 * (1/2) = 2.5 hits S3, but most elite cavalry had S4+ mounts: 2.5 * (1/2) = 1.25 wounds la/shield for a 5+ save 1.25 * (2/3) = .83333 For a grand total of 7.9 dead on the charge. from 5 knights. + charge vs 2-3 ranks (standards cancel) + outnumber. And you didn't even have to outmanuever your opponent to do it. Around here everyone always directs an attack or two at the unit champ so there's not even a guarantee that he'll survive to take his two swings. That's another reason 6-7th editions sucked: you usually didn't even get to throw dice to try and kill your opponent before you lost your block. He got to throw all the attack dice, you threw two dice for the break test, then removed the unit The "less elite" cavalry: 8A @ WS4 8 * (2/3) = 5.3333 hits S6 due to the lances 5.3333 * (5/6) = 4.4444 kills 7 horses attack: 7 * (1/2) = 3.5 hits horses are S3 3.5 * (1/2) = 1.75 wounds light armor/shield 1.75 * (2/3) = 1.166666 wounds. So a unit of "non-elite" cavalry were doing 1.1666666 + 4.4444444 = 5.6111 wounds to a unit on the charge. Combined with the charge bonus vs ranks + outnumber they stood a better chance of sticking around but a -1 or a -2 is still a pretty big deal depending on the army. You did nail on the head one of the things that I DIDN'T like about 8th - it didn't penalize you hard enough for getting flanked. There wasn't as much motivation to protect your flanks anymore as you could still be steadfast even whilst flanked and you had to have too many flanking models (2 complete ranks!?) in order to even receive the benefit of taking away the enemy rank bonus. Which is a shame. Well the example given above was that a 100 points cavalry unit would break a 3-400 points infantry unit on the charge with ease. None of yours would cost a mere 100 points, a unit of 5 chaos knights is over 250 points with a standard, close to 300 with full command & mark, 6-7 empire knights with command is around 200 points with command & will win the combat by less than 1 on average. Also most infantry costing 3-400 points is either elite or elves so will have higher ws meaning less hits & wounds. I agree that 7th edition was the age of cavalry, especially when they had the rule that allowed a unit to fight twice if they broke the enemy & got into a new combat,but it was not as powerful as some examples make it, either it was elite cavalry or cavalry led by characters that could make a frontal charge & break the enemy or it was simply too weak & had to rely on flanking which imo should break the enemy. Step-up, support attacks & steadfast was too much anti cavalry rules, especially when flanking doesn't affekt steadfast either.... Imo one of those rules had been enough to nerf cavalry, all 3 was 2 too many. Personally I prefer 6th edition using ravening hordes for balanced games, a very slick & streamlined game, the only cavalry with more than 1 attack is chaos knights which cost a fortune & are a special unit... Each editions has its ups & downs, but sometimes people misremember or just remember that one bad time.
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Post by gjnoronh on Feb 17, 2018 10:36:47 GMT
Agree there is absolutely something to mention positively for each edition, and there are players who prefer various prior editions (for me the most fun I had with Warhammer was around 5th ed)
I used to flank and break 200 point units regularly in early 7th ed and 6th with a unit of flesh hounds in sixth hat was under 100 points. Didn’t always work but was a cheap and easy enough gamble with fast cavalry that it was worth it.
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Post by roughtimes on Feb 17, 2018 19:39:00 GMT
I really disliked 7th, especially compared to 8th
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Post by mottdon on Feb 17, 2018 19:53:50 GMT
8th is my favourite. I haven't played any other editions, but yeah...8th is my favourite, therefore king.
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bigal
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Post by bigal on Feb 20, 2018 22:06:09 GMT
In 7th I once guessed an earthshaker shot 46.5" onto a skink priest's head, I'll never forget that. It misfired and blew up, but that was my best guess range EVER! lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 22:22:59 GMT
I do miss guessing ranges with warmachines. Got to be pretty good.
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Post by gjnoronh on Feb 20, 2018 23:02:04 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 23:08:14 GMT
Oh yeah I believe it. I'm not against the new method, but it's very rewarding guessing a shot and having it land close to/exactly where you want it to be. I may start to do it anyway just for funsies when I play with stone throwers.
Those were back in the days where my rock lobbas were to be feared!
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Post by KevinC on Feb 21, 2018 3:30:46 GMT
In 7th I once guessed an earthshaker shot 46.5" onto a skink priest's head, I'll never forget that. It misfired and blew up, but that was my best guess range EVER! lol ----------This is one thing I do miss. It's a skill you could develop. I regularly could target the precise model I wanted with guess range stone throwers and Doom Divers. It was part math equation and part estimation...and very fun. Cannons always had it easy though.
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Post by snyggejygge on Feb 21, 2018 5:24:04 GMT
I did use to like to guess range with war machines compared to the laser guided missiles we have in 8th, but after playing KoW a lot I would prefer if war machines just rolled to hit using the crews ballistic skill, if you roll a 1 you roll for misfire. Not only would it be more balanced & in line with other shooting, it would also mean that someone with bad sight wasn't handicapped like in earlier editions.
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Post by adso13 on Feb 21, 2018 6:14:41 GMT
I always hated that aspect of 6th/7th edition. Some people just don't have the spatial recognition ability eyeball that stuff, myself being one of them. I always felt like the learning curve on that portion of the game was unnecessary, especially as some people just aren't capable of learning it. And a better player will still more than likely win the game due to their better tactics and grasp of their army.
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bigal
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Post by bigal on Feb 22, 2018 13:23:44 GMT
It was a skill, and it mattered for charges as well. The rules for moving chargers were complex and limited, which made for another tactics part of the game (only one wheel, and you had to measure every inch of movement). I still have my arc of sight which has the pivot wheel. I don't like 8th's childish: 'roll dice, measure shortest distance, pick up unit and place in contact' that was my biggest problem with 8th when it came out. Also I hated that frenzy didn't have to charge if you passed a LD check, I thought it was a fair rule that they pretty much voided in 8th (if you are frenzied you should HAVE to charge). What else did they get rid of? Oh yeah! Popping chariots with strength 7. I remember the ASF rule was pretty much only for the keeper of secrets. I miss my khorne heralds on juggernauts with -1+ armor saves lol, I miss the wood elf tree Lord that can only be hit on 6's, I miss dwarf runes that stacked and were actually good (half of the reason to build a dwarf army was coming up with creative character builds), and I miss the 3 minimum core unit rules, none of that 25% that forces me to field slow, useless infantry.
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Post by gjnoronh on Feb 22, 2018 17:31:50 GMT
I remember the time Big Al was playing DL at the GW Baltimore GT around 2005. Huge event about 120-150 players. Al is playing khorne DL led by a thirster of course and gets matched up against a beastman army that is entirely composed of 18-20 chariots (one with a character.)
Turn 1 Al decides to put his blood thirster smack dab in the middle of the board. Opponent charges with like 7-9 chariots. Thirster survives the impact hits and attacks with his something like 7-9 attacks allocating one hit per chariot. Single strength 7 hit on every single chariot, _explodes_ every single chariot. At 4 wounds each x 7 or so chariots he did like 28-36 wounds of damage and wins combat. Just a totally epic moment.
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Post by strutsagget on Feb 22, 2018 17:55:50 GMT
I am glad they got rid of that then
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