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Post by KevinC on Apr 23, 2018 15:36:42 GMT
Download the army list here: THE GRAND ARMY OF BRETONNIADraft V has several minor changes throughout the list, so if you've been playing with Draft IV you should review this list carefully. The Lady's Boon and Lance Formation special rule has been quite altered.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Apr 28, 2018 1:55:11 GMT
View AttachmentDraft V has several minor changes throughout the list, so if you've been playing with Draft IV you should review this list carefully. The Lady's Boon and Lance Formation special rule has been quite altered. I like this. I will play with it soon. One thing I thought of, and I realize it is late to the party, but Brettonians being skilled with a lance just feels like they should have ASF on the charge only.
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Post by KevinC on Apr 28, 2018 4:57:43 GMT
Draft V has several minor changes throughout the list, so if you've been playing with Draft IV you should review this list carefully. The Lady's Boon and Lance Formation special rule has been quite altered. I like this. I will play with it soon. One thing I thought of, and I realize it is late to the party, but Brettonians being skilled with a lance just feels like they should have ASF on the charge only. ----------------- avatarofbugman, I agree, that's one of the reasons I prefer Impact Hits over Dev. Charge. Impact Hits happen before other attacks (so it's even better than ASF).
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Apr 28, 2018 11:33:53 GMT
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Post by avatarofbugman on Apr 28, 2018 12:12:19 GMT
I like this. I will play with it soon. One thing I thought of, and I realize it is late to the party, but Brettonians being skilled with a lance just feels like they should have ASF on the charge only. ----------------- avatarofbugman, I agree, that's one of the reasons I prefer Impact Hits over Dev. Charge. Impact Hits happen before other attacks (so it's even better than ASF). One concern I do have is that it is possible for a knight unit to crash into an enemy and only cause 1 or 2 impact hits depending on the size of the unit. This seems a touch meh to me. Is that the effect you were going for?
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Post by KevinC on Apr 28, 2018 14:12:06 GMT
----------------- avatarofbugman , I agree, that's one of the reasons I prefer Impact Hits over Dev. Charge. Impact Hits happen before other attacks (so it's even better than ASF). One concern I do have is that it is possible for a knight unit to crash into an enemy and only cause 1 or 2 impact hits depending on the size of the unit. This seems a touch meh to me. Is that the effect you were going for? ------------That's WFB. Anything random pretty much creates balance, sometime Knights will charge in an get 12 Impact Hits, at other times they will get 1 or 2, typically they will get 6-8 impact hits.
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Post by KevinC on Apr 28, 2018 14:22:20 GMT
I know I just posted the revised list, but I was thinking to modify the Core choices to make it all about Knights, which is what Bretonnia is...
What are your thoughts if the only core units are: Errantry Knights, Knights of the Realm, and Pauper Knights. Then Bowmen and Men-at-Arms become special.
This would mean Bret armies must have 25% Knights (that's the core requirement), and foot knights are included in that (which is important for siege games, etc).
As for the commoners, I don't think people typically take more than 3 units of bowmen / men-at-arms under 3,000 points. I could also make the Field Warden make them Core if he is the general (so you can still make a commoner army).
The original, 5th edition, army book required the army to take 25% Knights. By modifying the core choices above, the 8th list would mimic this aspect, which I believe makes sense.
Thoughts?
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Apr 28, 2018 15:42:26 GMT
I like this idea. The foot knights are the key here.
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Post by KevinC on Apr 28, 2018 15:51:45 GMT
One recommendation I have is about the blessing. I would like to see it be 6+ ward all the time and 5+ against shooting. ----------Well in current form, you're getting a 5+ ward against shooting (which is the most important) and since it also works in the magic phase and, since it's a base ward save, it combines with MR. This means by adding a character with Magic Resistance in a unit of knights they will have a 4+ ward or better, and 5+ against shooting. I think this is really good protection, especially with their 2+ armour save. The blessing should work for ranged attacks, then combat is anyone's gamble. Keep in mind the original blessing rules in 5th edition were that enemy units shooting at units of Knights needed to roll a 4+ first, otherwise they could not shoot. Designwise, I'd rather keep it simple: you get X in these phases. Rather than, you get X, then Y in this case. If that makes sense?
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Post by boda317 on Apr 28, 2018 19:29:34 GMT
I love the idea of an all knight core with the option to make a commoner army, seeing as I could do a huge commoner army! My only issue with the rules so far is the 5+ vs magic and shooting. I like the thought but this is my take on it. For 25 points a guy that's only one wound a 2+ can only go so far. When I need to sink almost 400 points into a unit to make it effective it's hard to justify more than one big block, if they die so quickly. 2+ is quickly made weaker in 8th with so many strength 4 and 5 attacks most armies have in close combat. It may sound dumb but a 2+ guy only having a chance of surviving vs crap units like say zombies makes me just want to take all foot knights. Around 400 points and you get 40 wounds instead of 25. Yes no impact hits but they can hold much better on second round than 12-15 knights. And to lose the ward save for the whole army on some very simple things that can happen with one bad round of combat seems, to me, too harse for what little it gives. With knights I expect to be on the charge bottom of 1 or bottom of 2, depending on when my first turn is. For one unit to fall and run from combat means the rest of my army loses something that may very well be useless at that points doesn't seem like a good enough reward for the risk. Sorry for the rambling. To recap, awesome rules so far but the boon is the only issue I have. Not enough reward for the risk
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Post by goreblade on Apr 30, 2018 2:13:15 GMT
I agree with Boda about the blessing. I liked the way it worked in 6th ed book (last version of the army book) for everything. I liked having to choose to pray for the blessing or not getting it. It made for a good early decision in the game. Also, I think the lance worked really well. The impact hits are more powerfull than ASF, it felt right. The knights as the only core is great. Didn't like at first but with the pauper knights i'm fine because you can still do a mostly infantry army if you want.
I have a few suggestions. For Louen Leoncoeur I'd give him I 7 and add regeneration to the Lady's Champion rule. It was cool that he could lose the Lady's Boon if he fled, refused a challenge, etc. In his case he would take a wound with no save if he lost it. Also, I liked how the whole army used to need to take a panic test if he was killed. Both of these were in the last army book and really set him apart from other lords. I really like the other special characters. I'd like to see the guy with hounds added too. I have some dogs I'd like to use.
I'd like suggest another virtue. If charged to the front it would allow a charge reaction of counter-charge. Counter-charge allows the character and any unit he is in to use any charge related rules as long as the reaction is to a unit charging them to their front arc and that starts the charge 8 or more inches away. So a bretonnian knight unit with this that counter charges get the +2 S for lances, impact hits, and +1 combat res for charging. This makes charging this unit to the front almost suicidal and this should be a very expensive virtue maybe 100pts. I could also be a banner instead.
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Post by KevinC on May 1, 2018 17:46:27 GMT
Note: the draft was revised to reflect changes to the army list selections. All Core choices are now Knight units, thus Bretonnian armies are required to take 25% Knights (through the 25% Core requirement). Field Wardens have a new special rule to allow a player to create a 'Commoner Army.'
------
Regarding the Blessing: although I understand the concerns regarding a ward save in combat, I can't help but feel that it's an unnecessary want. Let's look at this through the lense of a Knight of the Realm model build.
A Knight of the Realm is a 25 point human cav model with above human stateliness: WS4, S4, LD 8, he has a 2+ armour save, is not impeded by barding, and is immune to panic. Successful charges can cause a significant number of S6 impact hits from his unit. Further more, they have a 5+ ward save against all ranged attacks. For magic, this can be combined with a MR so it is pretty easy to have a Knight unit with a 4+, 3+, or even 2+ ward save against spells!!
I believe a ward save in combat is just too much. The Knights would be getting their cake and eating it too!
Against many units out their, their profiles (i.e. WS4, S4) combined with a 2+ army save is very good. If you find that a unit of Knights gets stuck and swamped in a grueling ongoing combat - perhaps you made a poor tactical decision? Perhaps you should have charged with two units or you should have planned for a support unit to help out in a later turn, or perhaps you should not have allowed your unit to get lured into the combat in the first place...
The original bless (5th edition army book) merely forced enemy shooting units to roll a 4+ first before they fired. The blessing I've designed is suppose to be along these lines where the Lady is protecting Knights from (dishonorable) ranged attacks, hence the ward works in the shooting and magic phases, and helps them to get into combat unmolested.
As for King Louen, he too has a lot of protection. First he is T5 with W7 because of the combined profile and he has a 1+ armour save. He cannot lose the blessing so always have a 5+ against shooting, and a 4+ ward against magic (because he has MR1). The Tabard of Kings also discourages spells to be cast at him, for if he is wounded by a spell the caster takes damage too. In combat he is -1 to hit, which is significant with WS7. Models with WS7 or less needs 5+ to hit him, models with WS3 or lower need 6s! WS 8+ still only hit on 4+. Again, combined with his armour, T and W, the King is tough to kill. Further more, since he can fly, he can stay away from an enemy that may be suited to kill him easily (if there is such a model).
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Post by boda317 on May 3, 2018 15:09:37 GMT
Just reading over the rules on lunch. Weren't pauper knights supposed to be core? Because if so they are still under the special choice when looking up the units stats
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Post by mottdon on May 3, 2018 18:21:02 GMT
Note: the draft was revised to reflect changes to the army list selections. All Core choices are now Knight units, thus Bretonnian armies are required to take 25% Knights (through the 25% Core requirement). Field Wardens have a new special rule to allow a player to create a 'Commoner Army.' ------ Regarding the Blessing: although I understand the concerns regarding a ward save in combat, I can't help but feel that it's an unnecessary want. Let's look at this through the lense of a Knight of the Realm model build. A Knight of the Realm is a 25 point human cav model with above human stateliness: WS4, S4, LD 8, he has a 2+ armour save, is not impeded by barding, and is immune to panic. Successful charges can cause a significant number of S6 impact hits from his unit. Further more, they have a 5+ ward save against all ranged attacks. For magic, this can be combined with a MR so it is pretty easy to have a Knight unit with a 4+, 3+, or even 2+ ward save against spells!! I believe a ward save in combat is just too much. The Knights would be getting their cake and eating it too! Against many units out their, their profiles (i.e. WS4, S4) combined with a 2+ army save is very good. If you find that a unit of Knights gets stuck and swamped in a grueling ongoing combat - perhaps you made a poor tactical decision? Perhaps you should have charged with two units or you should have planned for a support unit to help out in a later turn, or perhaps you should not have allowed your unit to get lured into the combat in the first place... The original bless (5th edition army book) merely forced enemy shooting units to roll a 4+ first before they fired. The blessing I've designed is suppose to be along these lines where the Lady is protecting Knights from (dishonorable) ranged attacks, hence the ward works in the shooting and magic phases, and helps them to get into combat unmolested. As for King Louen, he too has a lot of protection. First he is T5 with W7 because of the combined profile and he has a 1+ armour save. He cannot lose the blessing so always have a 5+ against shooting, and a 4+ ward against magic (because he has MR1). The Tabard of Kings also discourages spells to be cast at him, for if he is wounded by a spell the caster takes damage too. In combat he is -1 to hit, which is significant with WS7. Models with WS7 or less needs 5+ to hit him, models with WS3 or lower need 6s! WS 8+ still only hit on 4+. Again, combined with his armour, T and W, the King is tough to kill. Further more, since he can fly, he can stay away from an enemy that may be suited to kill him easily (if there is such a model). ^I agree with this. Inner Circle Empire Knights are 25 points as well, but don't get all the extras that a Bret Knight would. No ward save, no ignoring barding, no MR, and no ItP. To give them a CC ward save is just too much. Now, I could see giving them a CC ward buff from something else you could purchase, much like the Empire's Luminark gives a 6++ save to units within 6" of it. That would seem fair to me, but only so long as I have the option to attack it, kill it, and remove that buff, myself.
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Post by KevinC on May 3, 2018 18:41:16 GMT
Just reading over the rules on lunch. Weren't pauper knights supposed to be core? Because if so they are still under the special choice when looking up the units stats ----------Are you sure your reading the right one?
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