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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 2, 2018 13:07:55 GMT
Howdy!
Don't think about it too much but...
If I have a unit of White Lions (ASF & Great Weapons) fighting a unit of Wood Elf Glade Guard (ASF & Hand Weapons)....
Do the Glade Guard get re-rolls to hit vs. the White Lions?
I know the Lions don't, due to their Great Weapons, but seeing as both units have ASF, I assume this cancels all the rerolls of Elves when fighting eachother?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by sedge on Nov 2, 2018 13:26:01 GMT
ASF and ASL cancel each other out, so you treat the unit as if they have neither. So your Glade Guard would hit first and get the re-rolls to hit.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 2, 2018 13:56:58 GMT
I get that the White Lions would not gain the benefits when attacking, as the ASF / ASL cancel eachother out;
It's the ASF rule that gives the Lions the ability to attack at initiative speed.
So when being attacked by the GG, both units have the ASF rule (I'm assuming?).
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Post by sedge on Nov 2, 2018 14:06:55 GMT
No - the rules cancel each other out entirely, so when the Glade Guard attack the White Lions, they're attacking a unit with Initiative 5 that don't count as having either ASF or ASL. The rules cancelling each other out is a "constant" thing, not just when the unit with the two rules is attacking.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 2, 2018 15:01:46 GMT
It's the ASF rule that gives the Lions the ability to attack at initiative speed. its actually the ASL rule, so never mind, haha  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 2, 2018 15:38:44 GMT
Note, however, that while the two cancel out, the model still has the two special rules. So, adding other instances of ASF or ASL (by spell or other) will have no effect.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 2, 2018 15:51:16 GMT
2 instances of ASF should allow you to travel through time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 21:06:09 GMT
I'm in the (unpopular?) camp that in this scenario they strike at the same time with neither side getting rerolls.
Simply due to both sides of this situation having ASF. It doesn't matter than one side has had the EFFECTS of ASF cancelled out by ASL, both sides still have the rule being applied to them, (hence why stacking multiple instances of ASF or ASL accomplishes nothing) so you follow what happens when both sides have ASF.
This was argued TO DEATH during the heyday of 8th edition in the forums. GW never released any offical response to this. I'd say use your discretion here.
Just to get a head start on the other sides argument and to post all relevant rules here:
ASF - "If the model with this special rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the rerolls normally granted by this rule"
And:
ASL - "If a model has both this rule and Always Strikes First, the two cancel out and neither applies so use the model's Initiative".
So YOU say that the white lions don't have ASF now because the rule has been cancelled by ASL so the glade guard get their rerolls.
Then I say "Okay then I cast Speed of Light on the White Lions so now they have ASF again".
Then you say "You can't do that because the White Lions already have ASF".
So I say "okay then your glade guard don't get their rerolls".
Etc...
Again...I'd look at both sides of the argument and make an informed decision with your opponent here before it comes up. In the end you're not going to be fighting any of us, come up with an interpretation that you both agree on.
Also on the flipside - Your glade guard are in range of my Frost Phoenix and now have ASL.
Both sides STILL have ASF so we still go at the same time with neither side getting rerolls.
EDIT: My compromise would be that the side that DOESN'T have ASL applying to them getting to go first regardless, but neither side still gets rerolls.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 3, 2018 8:54:42 GMT
I can see where your reasoning goes astray. There is a difference between having a special rule and using it (i.e. applying the rule). Most, if not all, special rules will do nothing, unless and until they are actually used. For instance, a Greatsword will always have the Stubborn special rule, but it can only be used, when taking a Break test. Those familiar with the old debates regarding the Detachment rule and conferring steadfast will perhaps remember the importance of this distinction.
Likewise, having ASF and/or ASL will do nothing, unless and until they are being actually used. Then, and then only, ASF and ASL will cancel out: they are cancelled out by their actual use, not by the mere fact of having them.
When you cast e.g. Speed of Light in the Magic phase on a model with ASF and ASL, those special rules are not in use, and therefore have not been cancelled out: the model will thus have ASF multiple times, and, as we know "unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times." So, at the time of their use, it does not matter, whether the model has ASF once or mutiple times: the two will cancel out.
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Post by DiscoQing on Nov 3, 2018 12:04:16 GMT
Likewise, having ASF and/or ASL will do nothing, unless and until they are being actually used. Then, and then only, ASF and ASL will cancel out: they are cancelled out by their actual use, not by the mere fact of having them [both] . This was my thinking... |
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