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Post by crownprinceimrik on Jan 10, 2019 21:44:14 GMT
So does that mean that if I put a character mounted on a horse into a unit of infantry then the infantry unit becomes immune to stomps and to the Dreaded 13th as it's now a Unique troop type? That seems extremely game-y.
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Post by strutsagget on Jan 10, 2019 21:44:56 GMT
So does that mean that if I put a character mounted on a horse into a unit of infantry then the infantry unit becomes immune to stomps and to the Dreaded 13th as it's now a Unique troop type? That seems extremely game-y. No that is a character. First words in the faq answer.
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Jan 10, 2019 22:04:00 GMT
Ah, didn't read the whole FAQ answer. That's good.
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Post by vulcan on Jan 11, 2019 0:28:55 GMT
Which yet again demonstrates just how well-written and thought out GW rules are not...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 11, 2019 12:06:22 GMT
Ah, didn't read the whole FAQ answer. That's good. When a character joins a unit, this results in a combined unit, not a mixed unit - hence the different treatment.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 14, 2019 0:27:04 GMT
Challenging my own position again, I should point out that the Lizardmen FAQ quoted above is not valid anymore, since it is for the overlap of the 7 edition AB. Checking the 8th edition Lizardmen AB, it turns out that on p. 38, it specifies: "Stomps and Thunderstomps are always resolved against the Skinks (if all the Skinks are slain, any excess hits are lost). Although the Skink Cohort with Kroxigors is still defined as a "mixed unit," it does not seem to have the troop type "Unique" any longer. However, since the Skaven AB is still 7th edition in overlap, its FAQs are still valid, and such units are still specified as "Unique." Therefore, RAW my opinion above is still valid.
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 20, 2019 8:35:34 GMT
Also, how do BS and template shooting affect the chariot? Can BS shooting single out the chariot? Can template shooting hit the chariot? Screaming bells seems to its own rules that you choose what you aim at but I can't find that for the cauldron/bloodwrack.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 23, 2019 8:53:13 GMT
As you say, the Screaming Bell rules have rules specifying deviations from the normal rules; the Cauldron/Shrine does not. Therefore, normal rules apply.
1. For templates, the normal rules are clear:
BRB p.9: "any model that is fully or even partially underneath the template is hit automatically with the effect described in the special rules for the attack."
So, if the Cauldron/Shrine is at least partially under the template, it (and, of course, any character riding it) will be hit.
2. However, the normal rules for BS do not really seem to envisage a situation like the Cauldron/Shrine. I would argue against applying the Screaming Bell rules, since: - they are AB specific - an AB that is still 7th edition - and the Skaven AB, to boot.
One could argue that in combined units, "If there are fewer than five rank-and-file models left in the unit (or the character is of a different troop type) there is a chance that any characters in the unit could be hit — the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on a model; he must allocate two hits on each model before he can allocate a third, and so on."
However, as discussed above, the Dark Elves AB p. 47 specifies that "It can join units and leave as if it were a character," but then continues: "note that it is not otherwise treated as a character - it can just join and leave units like one."
If we look at other units with differing troop types (excluding characters) of the 8th edition (like Skink Cohort & Kroxigors, Monster and Handlers...), the method used to allocate hits is randomisation. So, barring an FAQ, the most logical method would seem to me to randomise the hits between the Cauldron/Shrine and the unit it has joined, and perhaps best with an equal chance (1-3 unit; 4-6 Cauldron/Shrine). Of course, if the Cauldron is ridden by a character, you have to randomise the hits again as descrined in the BRB. In any case, you should discuss this beforehand with your opponent.
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Post by strutsagget on Mar 23, 2019 9:07:55 GMT
Thank you FvonSigmaringen. So at least we have two clear ways of choosing in out group. Either go with 7ed streaming Bell. Or randomize like mixed units (krixigors). Edit did mean to say allocate and randomization as the two choices.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 23, 2019 9:13:09 GMT
I would rather say that following the Screaming Bell rules is the last and least likely option.
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 6, 2019 7:24:07 GMT
However, as discussed above, the Dark Elves AB p. 47 specifies that "It can join units and leave as if it were a character," but then continues: "note that it is not otherwise treated as a character - it can just join and leave units like one." So I would guess this is when the chariot is on it self. When a mount for a character I can’t see the character lost being a character. So this would mean a bloodwhack unit is not possible to to target and the cauldron as a mount is possible to target with the curse of the horn rat.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 6, 2019 8:07:17 GMT
Yes, we are talking about the chariot, but not just on itself. Do not forget, a character riding a chariot cannot normally join any other unit - a character on a Cauldron can. As explained above, both the Shrine and the Cauldron could be targeted by the Curse, because if they join a unit, that does not change the troop type to Unique.
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Post by strutsagget on Apr 6, 2019 8:20:35 GMT
Yes, we are talking about the chariot, but not just on itself. Do not forget, a character riding a chariot cannot normally join any other unit - a character on a Cauldron can. As explained above, both the Shrine and the Cauldron could be targeted by the Curse, because if they join a unit, that does not change the troop type to Unique. How come. Blood whack is just a standard chariot. It is not a character mount. Skaven faq is pretty clear a No this case.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Apr 6, 2019 9:42:51 GMT
I refer to my earlier post: The last sentence is ambiguous in the case of Cauldrons/Shrines, as the Will of the Gods speical rule states (Dark Elves AB p. 47): "It can join units and leave as if it were a character," but then continues: "note that it is not otherwise treated as a character - it can just join and leave units like one." However, I would argue that troop types do not change by something joining or leaving units. The troop type Unique unit is determined before the game starts, when building your Army list, by mixing different troop types through an upgrade (or something similar). They simply do not have the option ever to leave that unit - although all the models of one troop type can be destroyed, at which point the troop type will change from Unique to the troop type of the models that are left. In addition: When a character joins a unit, this results in a combined unit, not a mixed unit - hence the different treatment. Since the Shrine/Cauldron can join a unit just like a character, this too results in a combined, not a mixed unit.
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