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Post by strutsagget on Jan 8, 2019 17:55:39 GMT
What I wonder is if I have cauldron of blood or bloodwrack shrine inside a unit of witches. Is that unit now unique? Can it be targetted by for example dreaded 13th?
Skaven FAQ Q: Can I target a unit with The Curse of the Horned Rat comprised of infantry and non-infantry models? (p79) A: No, unless all of the non-infantry models are characters. Such units are unique units and as such cannot be targeted by The Curse of the Horned Rat. Note that adding a character to a unit of a different troop type will not make that unit unique, it’s troop type will be unchanged.
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Post by knoffles on Jan 8, 2019 20:24:27 GMT
What I wonder is if I have cauldron of blood or bloodwrack shrine inside a unit of witches. Is that unit now unique? Can it be targetted by for example dreaded 13th? Skaven FAQ Q: Can I target a unit with The Curse of the Horned Rat comprised of infantry and non-infantry models? (p79) A: No, unless all of the non-infantry models are characters. Such units are unique units and as such cannot be targeted by The Curse of the Horned Rat. Note that adding a character to a unit of a different troop type will not make that unit unique, it’s troop type will be unchanged. Isn’t the cauldron a mount option for a death hag. As such it is covered by the last sentence of the above around ‘adding a character to a unit will not make that unit unique’? As such the witchelves can still be targeted by the spell. The blood rack might be a different case as it is a rare option.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 8, 2019 20:58:05 GMT
The last sentence is ambiguous in the case of Cauldrons/Shrines, as the Will of the Gods speical rule states (Dark Elves AB p. 47): "It can join units and leave as if it were a character," but then continues: "note that it is not otherwise treated as a character - it can just join and leave units like one."
However, I would argue that troop types do not change by something joining or leaving units. The troop type Unique unit is determined before the game starts, when building your Army list, by mixing different troop types through an upgrade (or something similar). They simply do not have the option ever to leave that unit - although all the models of one troop type can be destroyed, at which point the troop type will change from Unique to the troop type of the models that are left.
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Post by vulcan on Jan 8, 2019 23:14:48 GMT
If I'm understanding the rule right, it covers things like skroxigor units, where you have both skinks (infantry) and kroxigors (monstrous infantry) in one unit. Since the Dread 13th can't target the kroxes, it can't target a skrox unit.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 8, 2019 23:24:15 GMT
Isn’t the cauldron a mount option for a death hag. As such it is covered by the last sentence of the above around ‘adding a character to a unit will not make that unit unique’? As such the witchelves can still be targeted by the spell. That would just postpone the question, until after the Hag is dead, while the Cauldron lives on. As such, it could leave and join units on its own.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 8, 2019 23:46:53 GMT
If I'm understanding the rule right, it covers things like skroxigor units, where you have both skinks (infantry) and kroxigors (monstrous infantry) in one unit. Since the Dread 13th can't target the kroxes, it can't target a skrox unit. That is not correct. According to the FAQ, a Spawn-kin Cohort cannot be targeted, because it has the troop type Unique. That is also why it cannot be Stomped or Thunderstomped.
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Post by vulcan on Jan 9, 2019 0:05:36 GMT
Which is basically what I said...
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Post by strutsagget on Jan 9, 2019 7:42:34 GMT
So is the special rule mixed unit(found in Skaven AB, for example, Giant rats) = unique troop type?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 9, 2019 8:47:49 GMT
Which is basically what I said... Not quite. One can have both infantry and monstrous infantry models in one unit [or, more generally, of different troop types] without them changing to the troop type Unique. In which case, the models retain their troop types, and the Curse could be targeted at that unit, affecting the Infantry models, but not the MI models.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 9, 2019 9:05:39 GMT
So is the special rule mixed unit(found in Skaven AB, for example, Giant rats) = unique troop type? Yes, as confirmed by Lizardmen Official Update Version 1.5, p. 4: Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that contains Kroxigor? (p94) A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique. In mixed units, the models will change their original troop types to "Unique," while in combined units, the models will retain their original troop types.
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Post by vulcan on Jan 9, 2019 20:43:00 GMT
So is the special rule mixed unit(found in Skaven AB, for example, Giant rats) = unique troop type? Probably not, as giant rats and their packmasters are the same size and effected the same by most things. Infantry and monstrous infantry are different sizes, and are affected by different rules differently. Thus, making them troop type 'unique' prevents a lot of arguments about 'does this rule work like a, or like b, because we have both a and b in the unit?'
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 9, 2019 23:03:02 GMT
Quite irrelant for this issue. Besides, the BRB p. 81 even specifies: "For the most part, monstrous infantry work exactly the same as normal infantry (i.e. follow the standard rules), but have a couple of extra facets to represent just how massive they are."
What matters is the troop type. The Skaven FAQ states that units comprised of infantry and non-infantry models have the troop type Unique. Packmasters have the troop type Infantry and Giant Rats have the troop type War Beasts. Therefore, a mixed unit comprised of Packmasters and Giant Rats has the troop type Unique. QED.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 10, 2019 18:01:07 GMT
I should emphasise, though, that this matters only for effects that specifically target units of a certain troop type, not models. So, the Packmaster/Giant Rat mixed unit will not be affected by the Curse, or stomp, but the Giant Rats as War Beasts will e.g suffer fear from Flaming Attacks.
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Post by DiscoQing on Jan 10, 2019 18:41:17 GMT
Why the difference? Stomp = no, as they're mixed Flaming fear = yes, as they're mixed but he is a beast
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 10, 2019 19:10:21 GMT
The unit has the troop type Unique - not the models. It is precisely because the models have different troop types that the troop type of the unit is Unique. Stomp affects the unit as a whole, while Flaming Attacks affect models.
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