Poll: Bull Centaur Renders vs. K'daai Fireborn

This is the first time I have heard this claim.  While I concede that Fireborn have the advantage of being more difficult to bring down via cannon / war machine fire (due to their greater wound count and being separate entities),  I think almost everything else falls in favour of the Destroyer.

1 Destroyer and 6 Fireborn are separated by 5 points.  The big advantage that the Fireborn have are their combined 12 wounds, as compared to the 6 of the Destroyer.  They also have 12 attacks compared to the Destroyer's average of 8, however the Destroyer's attacks are at S7, while the Fireborn are only S5.  In most cases, I'd rather have 8 S7 attacks at my disposal than 12 S5 attacks.

Everything else seems to be in favour the Destroyer:

• +3 movement
• +1 WS
• +2 Strength
• +2 Toughness (this is further compounded because of the re-rolling of mundane successful wounds)
• +1 Initiative 
• +1 Leadership

The Destroyer's Thunderstomp is also far better than the stomps of the Fireborn because they are at S7 vs. S5.  The Destroyer is also more resistant to characteristic tests.


So what have I missed?  Why do you feel that the Fireborn are better than the Destroyer?

Why not?


They are monstrous beasts and as per the page 85 of the BRB: "Monstrous beasts have the Stomp special rule".

The foot print is large (100X150), but the equivalent value of Fireborn also have a pretty large foot print (120X80).  Plus the foot print is a double edged sword, because the large footprint allows more models to be in base contact for the S4 auto-hits.

I agree that its frenzy can definitely be used against it.  Which from a balance perspective is a good thing, as it does need to have some weaknesses.  It is in this chaff game where the game will be played and it will come down to generalship.  We can also field chaff and we also have chaff removal tools.  The Destroyer's massive 18" march will also help in this regard, is it makes the chaff game more difficult since it can so easily traverse the battlefield.  Forced charges, while potentially problematic, are still relatively uncommon.  Even on its own, leadership 8 is decent, and if it is in range of the general & BSB (during the early stages of the game) it should not be a problem at all.

The main issue is the forced overrun, which makes it easier to lead astray than the Fireborn.  However the Fireborn can also be slowed down via chaff (just not to the same extent) and they are only movement 6.    

The question is, does the presence of frenzy completely nullify all the many advantages the Destroyer enjoys over the Fireborn?  Other great units in the game also have Frenzy and can still function quite well.  Who would argue that WoC Skullcrushers are not a super potent unit?  And Skullcrushers belong to an army with far less shooting than the LoA has.

Oh yeah you're right. Don't know where I got that from, was looking at the rules the other day

Good job really or their damage output would not be high enough

I personally prefer BC purely because of their mobility

I've seen the opposite.  


sgu97bjd conducted a survey over on the Chaos-Dwarfs forum and the Destroyer was rated much higher than the Fireborn.  In fact, the Destroyer had the second highest score in the entire CD army, right after the Magma Cannon.  The Fireborn received one of the lowest ratings...



Lords

Chaos Dwarf Sorcerer Prophet 3.36 (91%)



Heros

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Castellan 3.43 (94%)

Chaos Dwarf Deamonsmith Sorcerer 3.36 (84%)

Bull Centaur Taur'ruk 3.21 (92%)

Hobgoblin Khan 3.00 (89%)



Character Mounts

Bale Taurus 3.21 (92%)

Great Taurus 3.15 (89%)

Giant Wolf (CD) 3.15 (93%)

Lammasu 2.62 (75%)



Core

Hobgoblin Cutthroats 2.93 (98%)

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard 2.64 (91%)



Special

Magma Cannon 4.50 (90%)

Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher 3.93 (84%)

Iron Daemon 2.71 (88%)

Bull Centaur Renders 2.64 (91%)

K'daii Fireborn 2.57 (94%)

Chaos Dwarf Infernal Ironsworn 1.64 (91%)



Rare

K'daii Destroyer 4.43 (80%)

Hellcannon (CD) 4.14 (86%)

Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders 2.93 (84%)

Dreadquake Mortar 2.71 (77%)

Chaos Seige Giant 2.00 (89%)



Mind you, I believe it was only based on 14 votes, but still.  To your point, I have heard some grumblings on the Destroyer over on the CD website, but I've heard its praises sung far more often.

The poll results were posted on the Chaos-Dwarf forum on 07-14-2013.  I speculate that it would have been compiled in the weeks or at worst months leading up to that date.  In any event, that change wouldn't effect its susceptibility to being Frenzy baited.  Even as the rules currently stand, it is pretty hard to wound.


I hope to build up a Chaos Dwarf army soon, so I have not yet fielded it.  However, I have fielded other things with frenzy (Skullcrushers, Ripperdactyls, Ramhotep, etc.), so the principle is the same.  Aside from its frenzy drawbacks and flaming attacks its rules and stats are pretty insane.  It matches up to most things very effectively.