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Post by strutsagget on May 10, 2019 14:03:54 GMT
So I want to start playing with my empire soon. I want to focus on big groups of humans infantry. 25% heroes and lords. Any model goes. Where is a good start if I want it to be as competitive as possible and escalate it from 1600 to 2000 to 2500?
So halberdiers 40 as core 10 archers as mage bunker. A mage, a priest, a captain bsb and a great cannon and a volley gun with engineer.
Example
First Draft The Empire
Battle Wizard Lord: Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Light; Talisman of Preservation 245
Master Engineer 65
Captain of the Empire: full plate armour; Battle Standard; Dragonhelm 101
Warrior Priest: great weapon; heavy armour 72
38 Halberdiers: Sergeant; musician; standard bearer 258 • 5 Archers 35 • 5 Archers 35
10 Crossbowmen: musician 100
Great Cannon 120
38 Greatswords: Count's Champion; musician; standard bearer 448
Helblaster Volley Gun 120
1 599 points
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 10, 2019 20:53:06 GMT
I'll start this off by saying I've got essentially zero experience with Empire outside of designing an army for myself and beginning the construction of it. I've only faced them once and never played them. That said, I can give a few thoughts!
Firstly, I'd drop the Dragonhelm and replace it with the Enchanted Shield and the Dragonbane Gem. Same points cost and you get one higher armor save.
I like the Cannon and the Volley Gun, the Volley Gun is definitely very good and I'd say that those are necessary in a competitive build.
I'm not sure about your big Halberdier block. I know that a lot of people run Halberdiers as their big core infantry block, but I've got a different idea, and it was how I designed my list. Halberdiers hit hardest of the three State Troop options, but they die fastest, meaning they aren't very well suited to be a hard anvil. My list features a unit around 40-strong of Swordsmen and then 2 detachments of 15 Halberdiers at 2500. The Swordsmen are the most survivable State Troop having a 5+ instead of 6+ armor and they've got a parry save. The WS4 will also help against some enemies. The idea is that the Halberdiers will only be engaging the enemy's flanks while the Swordsmen hold the enemy in place. Not sure if it would work that well in practice, but that's how I'm building my Empire army.
Something to consider when you scale up the list, I'd have a Warrior Priest and probably a Captain in every infantry block if you can, Warrior Priest first. The Hatred and the Lizardmen leadership will do wonders for the soldiery. Plus some of the Battle Prayers are crazy good (the reroll to wound one is awesome).
Finally, I've got a list design theory suggestion. I think you need more shooting, by a significant amount. Your list is extremely slow moving and unlike most infantry-based lists you've got no fast elements at all. When I run an infantry list, which I like to do a lot, I've always got a unit of cavalry in there to allow me to take the offense. You've just got 2 M4 infantry blocks and no chaff, your list cannot attack with any reasonable assumption of success. That means you need to have enough shooting to force the enemy to come to you and to destroy the enemy's fast units that will outmaneuver you. I think you've got the beginning of that, but you just need more. A Wood Elf list will be extremely hard for you to face as they'll outshoot you and you'll never catch them. I'd suggest reducing the size of the Halberdiers and Greatswords both and adding in either another Hellblaster or some Handgunners, or both. Also, I'd really suggest using the Detachment system if you do something like that. 3 sets of 10 Handgunners is a very mean regimental group because all 30 get to Stand and Shoot but your enemy will only ever kill 10 in their charge.
Again, please take this with a grain of salt, I've got little experience with Empire so I'm drawing on other armies and stats more than actual combat! Hope this helps!
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Post by Naitsabes on May 10, 2019 22:44:57 GMT
The list is pretty good. Lore of Light works well with halberdiers. But, I think you need something ~chaff/fast in any game of warhammer. For Empire that means 5 knights with musician. One unit at 1600pts, two later on. As crownprinceimrik suggested drop some bodies from the infantry to make that happen. 38 stubborn bodies at 1600pts is overkill, nobody in their right mind would engage that unit (or let you engage anything meaningful). I actually think you have the right amount of small arms shooting. enough to plink off the stupid charmed shield from a daemon prince and give fast cav reason to pause. at higher points you would want to add another cannon.
Have fun with the guys in jammies. They are my first love and I still find it really satisfying to stand up to all manner of beasts and villains with a bunch of average joes.
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Post by saniles on May 11, 2019 20:34:19 GMT
So copperpotmd can probably share his also limited empire experience with the archer detachment mage bunker, who also looks like your general. If your opponent has anything remotely fast, it could go south fast. Short version, I wiped out his general in turn two with a couple charges and overruns in a Blood and Glory, winning me the game. He couldn’t possibly have foreseen it tbh.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 11, 2019 22:24:48 GMT
Well, luck has always a big part to play. That said, it is self-evident that you need to keep your Wizard Lord out of CC, even more so if he is the General. That means you must keep ahead of any potential threats, and, if need be, get the Wizard out of the bunker in time, and use the latter as sacrificial redirector. As others have said, you lack some fast units. Also, do you have one archer bunker of 10 or two archer detachments of 5? The HBVG does benefit from the Engineer, but is also worth it on its own. If you need extra points, you could skip the Engineer. Most of the Empire characters have a suppoting role- for which they have to survive, and should be equipped accordingly. For instance, you want the WP for Hatred and the Battle Prayers, not to kill something. So, drop the GW and give him more protection, at the very least a non-magical shield. crownprinceimrik seems to be saying that you can have three Detachments with one Regimental Unit - the maximum is, of course, two. And,in the 8th edition, Crossbowmen are usually more worth their points than Handgunners.
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 12, 2019 6:54:49 GMT
What I was saying with the 3 sets of Handgunners was a Regimental unit of 10 and two detachments of 10. Sorry for the confusion!
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 12, 2019 7:09:29 GMT
You cannot have that either, I am afraid. The maximum size of a Detachment is half the number of models of the Regimental Unit.
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Post by crownprinceimrik on May 12, 2019 7:24:12 GMT
Ah, whoops! There's my inexperience with the Empire book showing.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 12, 2019 16:04:30 GMT
To free some points, 30 Halberdiers should be sufficient; with the GW you could go down to 25 or even 20. I suppose the WP will also be your General? You might consider giving the Standard of Discipline to the standard bearer of the unit he is in, for a solid Ld 9. If you put the WP in the unit with the Detachments, these can benefit from his prayers too. As I said above, equip the WP and BSB for survival, but I would also give them a cheap magic weapon, to deal with any Ethereals that might be abound. The Shrieking Blade usually comes in handy. If possible, give the Wizard Lord a Scroll, for that one spell you cannot afford to go through.
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Post by strutsagget on May 12, 2019 19:01:37 GMT
Then after some modifiers:
Second Draft The Empire
Battle Wizard Lord: Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Light; Talisman of Preservation 245
Arch Lector: heavy armour; shield; Dragonhelm 118
Captain of the Empire: full plate armour; shield; Battle Standard; Standard of Discipline 108
Battle Wizard: Lore of Light; Dispel Scroll 90
30 Halberdiers: Sergeant; musician; standard bearer 210 • 5 Archers 35 • 5 Archers 35
5 Empire Knights: musician 120
14 Crossbowmen: musician 136
Great Cannon 120
21 Greatswords: Count's Champion; musician; standard bearer 261
Helblaster Volley Gun 120
1 598 points
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 12, 2019 20:14:11 GMT
Personally, I would invest more in additional units than in characters, perhaps an additional unit of Knights, or Pistoliers/Outriders, or Scouts to deal with enemy Vanguard units. If it depends on the models you have, you might think of creating an additional unit of Halberdiers or Greatswords. That aside: - As I suggested before, it is better to give the unit's standard bearer the Standard of Discipline (rather than the BSB). Unlike the BSB, the unit's standard cannot be lost in CC, and it allows you to equip the BSB with magical items for survival. [Edit: That is the reason why I never ever give my BSB a magical standard. You need him for the re-rolls of Ld/Break tests, but for that, he needs to survive.] - For a Wizard bunker, you need at least 10 models. If you plan to use the archers as such, they need to be merged into one unit.
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Post by Horace on May 12, 2019 20:16:26 GMT
I think it's a decent list but not sure I would feel the need for 5 magic levels and prayers at 1600 points.
Seems excessive, I would prefer more bodies.
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Post by strutsagget on May 13, 2019 7:13:12 GMT
Then a third attempt is:
I was thinking of running wizard with crossbows and AL and BSB with Halberdiers but maybe AL should be run with great swords?
Third Draft The Empire
Battle Wizard Lord: Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Light; Talisman of Preservation; Dispel Scroll 270
Arch Lector: heavy armour; shield; Dragonhelm 118
Captain of the Empire: full plate armour; Battle Standard; Sword of Might; Enchanted Shield; Dawnstone 141
35 Halberdiers: Sergeant; musician; standard bearer 240 • 5 Archers 35 • 5 Archers 35
5 Empire Knights: musician 120
12 Crossbowmen: musician 118
Great Cannon 120
23 Greatswords: Count's Champion; musician; standard bearer 283
Helblaster Volley Gun 120
1 600 points
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 13, 2019 8:26:33 GMT
Note that archers make a better Wizard bunker, because of the -1 to Hit and the improved mobility through Free Reform. If you put the Al in the Greatswords, the standard bearer could take the Standard of Discipline, giving the General Ld 10. Stubborn Ld 10 with a re-roll from the BSB is almost unbreakable. As I indicated before, our characters have a supporting role, for which they need to survive. If they kill something, that is just a bonus. In this respect, the Shrieking Blade is better (and cheaper) than the SoM. Fear is not what it used to be, but still might help your character (and his unit) to survive longer.
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Post by strutsagget on May 13, 2019 16:16:41 GMT
But if putting the wiz with archers then I might as well move archers to the great swords for stubborn.
Wiz goes with archers AL with great swords BSB with halberdiers
Fourth Draft The Empire
Battle Wizard Lord: Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Light; Talisman of Preservation; Dispel Scroll 270
Arch Lector: heavy armour; shield; Dragonhelm; Ironcurse Icon 123
Captain of the Empire: full plate armour; Battle Standard; Enchanted Shield; Dawnstone; Shrieking Blade 131
37 Halberdiers: Sergeant; musician; standard bearer 252
5 Empire Knights: musician 120
12 Crossbowmen: musician 118
Great Cannon 120
21 Greatswords: Count's Champion; musician; standard bearer (Standard of Discipline) 276 • 10 Archers 70
Helblaster Volley Gun 120
1 600 points
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