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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jul 3, 2020 5:05:28 GMT
Can you possibly do a vs horde unit of spear Skeleton warriors as well.  |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jul 3, 2020 5:32:32 GMT
First two images seems not to work for me. What are you comparing the options against? The first two images were just my failed attempts to post the third image (I've grown too used to being able to post pictures directly to Lustria Online). I don't even see them on my PC, but they show up as little white boxes when look at this thread on my mobile. There should (hopefully) be one image with three small Excel charts on it, which explore... - Infernal Guard (hand weapon + shield) vs. Infernal Guard (Great Weapons)
- Infernal Guard (hand weapon + shield) vs. Infernal Guard (Fireglaives)
- Infernal Guard (Great Weapons) vs. Ironsworn
Just a little bit of Chaos Dwarf on Chaos Dwarf violence to get things started. I plan to compare them to a few other units to gain some sort of sense of how the upgrades match-up and if they are worth their points cost.
It was interesting to see the much maligned Ironsworn beat down their GW brethren (which makes sense, as they do cost more). I was a bit surprised to see that Fireglaives barely beat HW&S. Of course they are paying for their ranged capability, but I thought the +1S would outweigh the loss of armor + parry save by a greater margin.
I was pondering the HW/shield option vs Fireglaives in combat and it occurred to me that Blunderbuss troops are identical in combat to the HW/shield guys so that unit of 30 HW/Shield dwarfs could be swapped for a unit of 20 Blunderbuss guys with no changes to your workings. 20 Blunderbuss vs 21 Fireglaives is a very even matchup in more ways than 1 it turns out. Hashut approves of this topic. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jul 3, 2020 5:39:14 GMT
For the next engagement of our Infernal Guard, we take on some of the apex predators of the infantry world... Chaos Warriors. I've decided to tackle three of the most common builds: - Mark of Nurgle with halberds
- Mark of Khorne with additional hand weapons
- Mark of Tzeentch with hand weapon and shield
  MoN + Halberd clears up all there of our Infernal Guard variants, although the Ironsworn at least make it close. Speaking of Ironsworn, I'm tremendously impressed with how evenly they stack up against MoT and MoK Chaos Warrior builds. When comparing core IG with HW&S to GW, they are pretty close... so much so, that I'd say you're better off with the HW&S for more bodies. Overall, no surprise that the Chaos Warriors come out on top, but the Ironsworn are proving to be pretty impressive. Shame that they aren't core. I must say I'm glad and impressed the Ironsworn beat the MOK AHW guys. A mate always used to bring 2 units of 12 of the buggers so I am well aware of their damage potential (oh how my tomb king skeletons and tomb guard hate them) You know if Ironsworn had the Dwarf Ironbreaker parry bonus they would actually be pretty darn awesome. Hmmm...something for me to think about as a potential house rule  It's a purely defensive buff so I doubt it would cause too much grief opposition wise but would make a tremendous amount of difference in these CC matchups and further differentiate them. |
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Post by Horace on Jul 3, 2020 6:47:37 GMT
For the next engagement of our Infernal Guard, we take on some of the apex predators of the infantry world... Chaos Warriors. I've decided to tackle three of the most common builds: - Mark of Nurgle with halberds
- Mark of Khorne with additional hand weapons
- Mark of Tzeentch with hand weapon and shield
MoN + Halberd clears up all there of our Infernal Guard variants, although the Ironsworn at least make it close. Speaking of Ironsworn, I'm tremendously impressed with how evenly they stack up against MoT and MoK Chaos Warrior builds. When comparing core IG with HW&S to GW, they are pretty close... so much so, that I'd say you're better off with the HW&S for more bodies. Overall, no surprise that the Chaos Warriors come out on top, but the Ironsworn are proving to be pretty impressive. Shame that they aren't core. I must say I'm glad and impressed the Ironsworn beat the MOK AHW guys. A mate always used to bring 2 units of 12 of the buggers so I am well aware of their damage potential (oh how my tomb king skeletons and tomb guard hate them) You know if Ironsworn had the Dwarf Ironbreaker parry bonus they would actually be pretty darn awesome. Hmmm...something for me to think about as a potential house rule It's a purely defensive buff so I doubt it would cause too much grief opposition wise but would make a tremendous amount of difference in these CC matchups and further differentiate them. Or if they (and the rest of the Chaos Dwarfs) had the updated resolute rule from the 8th Dwarfs rather than the crappy 7th rule |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jul 3, 2020 6:49:59 GMT
I'm particularly curious about the White Lion matchup.
That's where I feel the Ironsworn might shine and prove their worth vs their core kin.
Dirty White Lions
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jul 3, 2020 20:05:56 GMT
Grave guard are certainly a fearsome unit. Strength 6 vs Dwarfs t4 is always a bit of a sweet spot against them. Especially when backup by the +1 to hit provided by the Banner of Barrows. Hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's and leaving our save at 6+ / 6++ (at best) is pretty nasty. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jul 3, 2020 20:14:34 GMT
You know if Ironsworn had the Dwarf Ironbreaker parry bonus they would actually be pretty darn awesome. Or if they (and the rest of the Chaos Dwarfs) had the updated resolute rule from the 8th Dwarfs rather than the crappy 7th rule Agreed. The Dwarfs really benefit from their rules updated and it really stinks that we are stuck with the old version. Maybe that is why Chaos Dwarfs hate their untainted brethren so much  . Having the shieldwall rule would really help out HW&S IG and as you say, the Ironbreaker version of the rule would be perfect for the Ironsworn. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jul 4, 2020 4:11:29 GMT
I'm particularly curious about the White Lion matchup. That's where I feel the Ironsworn might shine and prove their worth vs their core kin. Dirty White Lions UNLESS THE WHITE LIONS FIELD THE BANNER OF THE WORLD DRAGON! Personally I would never field Ironsworn against HE because their key unit will surely have the banner (as it's one of the best magic items in the game, IMHO) and with it they become an absolute hard counter to our Ironsworn. With that said, here is how our Infernal Guard/Ironsworn do against High Elves units of: - White Lions of Chrace
- Phoenix Guard
In both cases, it is assumed that the units do not have the Banner of the World Dragon.  It is important to note that in both cases the HW&S Infernal Guard performed better (but still lost their combats) than the GW variant. The HW&S Infernal Guard also start off with a numerical advantage in both scenarios. The Ironsworn take two razor thin loses, but when factoring in that they are also outnumbered and the potential of the Banner of the World Dragon, I'd avoid them. |
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 4, 2020 6:18:00 GMT
Interesting how great the high elves are, this ain’t even close. I am the only high elf player in my group and they are up for painting when I am done with woodies. So I have only a few games so far.
It would be interesting to see how spear elves and sword masters stack up too.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jul 5, 2020 5:50:57 GMT
Interesting how great the high elves are, this ain’t even close. I am the only high elf player in my group and they are up for painting when I am done with woodies. So I have only a few games so far. It would be interesting to see how spear elves and sword masters stack up too. High Elves are definitely among the top 3 armies of 8th edition Warhammer. They might very well be the strongest, although DE and WoC give them a pretty good run for their money. So here we go with Spearmen and Swordmasters.  In regards to the Spearmen, the reason I have them only 8 wide as opposed to a horde, is that at 360 points there are only 40 of them. As such, they would have the exact same number of attacks. However, for interest sake, if they did have a horde of five full ranks and thus dishing out 40 attacks (because the IG are only 6 wide, so 2 files will not be in b2b contact) we would have the following... - IG with HW&S barely come out on top with a differential of +0.6
- IG with GW break even at 0.0
- Ironsworn still win convincingly with a differential of +3.9
Of course in all cases, the spearmen will outnumber us. As for the Swordmasters... they are just nasty. A very bad match-up for IG of all kinds (at least in CC). |
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 5, 2020 6:33:46 GMT
Don’t sword masters use great weapons and thereby ASL cancel out ASF?
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jul 5, 2020 15:21:38 GMT
Don’t sword masters use great weapons and thereby ASL cancel out ASF? You are absolutely right. It's a good thing that one of us is paying attention!! I've updated and fixed the calculations. Cheers, |
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 7, 2020 7:04:30 GMT
Makes me want to try out HaS + Hobos + Ironsworn. Main problem is movement 3... so need a lot of shooting to force opponent forward.
So what’s up next OnG(big uns savages and black orcs), Dark Elves(spear elves, witches, executioners and black guard) and Ogres?
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 7, 2020 7:05:46 GMT
Or if they (and the rest of the Chaos Dwarfs) had the updated resolute rule from the 8th Dwarfs rather than the crappy 7th rule Agreed. The Dwarfs really benefit from their rules updated and it really stinks that we are stuck with the old version. Maybe that is why Chaos Dwarfs hate their untainted brethren so much . Having the shieldwall rule would really help out HW&S IG and as you say, the Ironbreaker version of the rule would be perfect for the Ironsworn. So the three rules from the dwarf book, relentless, resolute and shieldwall would make a big difference. |
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Post by Horace on Jul 7, 2020 9:14:04 GMT
Agreed. The Dwarfs really benefit from their rules updated and it really stinks that we are stuck with the old version. Maybe that is why Chaos Dwarfs hate their untainted brethren so much . Having the shieldwall rule would really help out HW&S IG and as you say, the Ironbreaker version of the rule would be perfect for the Ironsworn. So the three rules from the dwarf book, relentless, resolute and shieldwall would make a big difference. I'd even just take relentless and resolute, they are after all shared rules in the same was as elven ASF. Relentless didn't change but Resolute went from penalty to bonus |
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