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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 29, 2020 4:03:08 GMT
Alongside the Magma Cannon and the Deathshrieker, our rare section contains our greatest damage dealers. I start all my list building by first choosing my rare selections. This thread has been setup to discuss how people fill out the rare sections of their armies. I play at 3000 points, so that leaves me with 750 points of rare. My two main builds are: - K'daai Destroyer
- Hellcannon
- Hellcannon
- K'daai Destroyer
- K'daai Destroyer
I have contemplated fielding triple hellcannons, but I'm resistant to leave home without at least a single K'daai Destroyer. I'd love to be able to field a hellcannon alongside dual Destroyers, but alas I don't have enough rare points for that setup. The stuff that never makes it into my list are: - Hobgoblin Wolf Riders - I feel the Khan is a better choice, but these guys are definitely usable
- Dreadquake Mortar - the hellcannon is much better in my eyes
- Chaos Siege Giant - waste of points
So the question is, how do you fill out your rare section (and at what points level are you playing at)?
Which of my two setups to do you feel is superior [Destroyer + Destroyer] or [Destroyer + Hellcannon + Hellcannon]? and why?
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Post by mrbaldrick on May 30, 2020 23:51:49 GMT
I usually play 2K-3K. I like to take two Dreadquakes with ogre loaders. The Quake rule combined with Ash Storm can really slow down an enemy. The Hell Cannon is ok but I'll take causing a dangerous terrain check on the whole unit over a -1 panic check.
I don't care for Hobgoblins much so they usually stay on the shelf. I think the K'daaiis a bit of a point sink. I play against Lizardmen a lot and skinks will eat him for breakfast. Otherwise I prefer Bull Centaurs for my muscle.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 31, 2020 5:49:59 GMT
I usually play 2K-3K. I like to take two Dreadquakes with ogre loaders. The Quake rule combined with Ash Storm can really slow down an enemy. The Hell Cannon is ok but I'll take causing a dangerous terrain check on the whole unit over a -1 panic check. I don't care for Hobgoblins much so they usually stay on the shelf. I think the K'daaiis a bit of a point sink. I play against Lizardmen a lot and skinks will eat him for breakfast. Otherwise I prefer Bull Centaurs for my muscle. I agree with you that the Quake rule is better than the Hellcannon's panic check. For me, the Hellcannon wins out though because it is also an unbreakable monster that can protect my flank or back lines. That said, you're not the first I've heard advocating the Dreadquake, so there must be something to it! While I absolutely love the K'daai Destroyer, I can definitely see how the skink's poisoned shooting would cause it a whole heap of trouble. If you can get it into combat though, nothing in our army hits as hard in close combat. How many units of skink skirmishers does your opponent typically field? I'm eager to give my Bull Centaurs a go. I think they unjustly get a bad rap, but they seem like a pretty solid unit to me. |
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Post by mrbaldrick on May 31, 2020 12:06:12 GMT
If you can get it into combat though, nothing in our army hits as hard in close combat. How many units of skink skirmishers does your opponent typically field? I'm eager to give my Bull Centaurs a go. I think they unjustly get a bad rap, but they seem like a pretty solid unit to me. These days in the Covid-19 world my son is my regular opponent. He usually fields between 2-3 units of regular Skinks, a unit of Chameleon Skinks and sometimes an Ancient Stegadon with double Giant Blow Pipes. I don't usually play the math hammer but I kinda like what the Centaurs give me over the K'aadi. I'm also not playing in any tournaments these days and always advocate to take the units you like over what's going to win. The centaurs have their drawbacks (LD for one) but I love the character they bring to the army. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on May 31, 2020 23:39:35 GMT
These days in the Covid-19 world my son is my regular opponent. He usually fields between 2-3 units of regular Skinks, a unit of Chameleon Skinks and sometimes an Ancient Stegadon with double Giant Blow Pipes. I don't usually play the math hammer but I kinda like what the Centaurs give me over the K'aadi. I'm also not playing in any tournaments these days and always advocate to take the units you like over what's going to win. The centaurs have their drawbacks (LD for one) but I love the character they bring to the army. Yeah, that is quite a bit of poison firepower. It would be tricky taking all that out before they got to the Destroyer. The leadership of the Centaurs is only okay, but it can be easily augmented. If you have the Bull Centaur Taur'ruk in the unit then you are up to Ld 9. On top of that you can give the unit itself a magic standard: the Gleaming Pennant (for a one time failed leadership re-roll) or the Standard of Discipline (1+ Leadership... which along with the Taur'ruk bumps the unit up to Ld 10). Give the Taur'ruk the Crown of the Command and all of a sudden the unit can be easily sporting stubborn leadership 10! I think this works well to offset the Centaurs other big weakness which is only having 2 attacks per model. Static combat resolution (or below average dice rolls) can get them into trouble very quickly if they don't have some sort of leadership augmentation. On the other hand, if they are stubborn, they can really grind down enemies pretty well since they are defensively very resilient with T5, 3+ armour save and 3 wounds each. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jun 5, 2020 14:26:55 GMT
Okay, so far for Rare loadouts we have: - K'daai Destroyer + K'daai Destoryer (@3000pts)
- K'daai Destroyer + Hellcannon + Hellcannon (@3000pts)
- Hellcannon + Hellcannon + Hellcannon (@3000pts)
- Dreadquake Mortar + Dreadquake Mortar (@2000-3000pts)
Does anyone use a Rare loadout that is different to these? Any thoughts on which of these you feel is most effective?
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 5, 2020 17:21:42 GMT
Well you have wolf riders too.
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jun 5, 2020 17:41:46 GMT
Well you have wolf riders too. Do you typically use them in your games? Do you have a rare choice loadout to add to our list? |
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 5, 2020 18:16:03 GMT
Well you have wolf riders too. Do you typically use them in your games? Do you have a rare choice loadout to add to our list? Well I think the rare load out depends on many factors. Like we discussed earlier wolfriders/khans as chaff depends on other options and where you have spare points. At 2500p and less you pretty often find spare in rare at least I do and also prefer to have 2 more drops to put down early. I often run kdaii d. and 2 sets of wolf riders with spears. But also love running dual hellcannons but think the kdaii is stronger. It do depends on the rest of list though. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jun 5, 2020 18:49:16 GMT
I often run kdaii d. and 2 sets of wolf riders with spears. But also love running dual hellcannons but think the kdaii is stronger. It do depends on the rest of list though. I thought you weren't a big fan of the K'daai Destroyer. On a previous thread I got the impression that you thought of them as being mediocre/average/etc. |
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 6, 2020 5:44:35 GMT
I often run kdaii d. and 2 sets of wolf riders with spears. But also love running dual hellcannons but think the kdaii is stronger. It do depends on the rest of list though. I thought you weren't a big fan of the K'daai Destroyer. On a previous thread I got the impression that you thought of them as being mediocre/average/etc. Depends on list. Kdaii d. is good but not as broken as people say. Against a prepared good player it is 50/50 chaffed away. But I also not as fond of filling my special and rare with only WMs as it then hard to win as soon as the RnF hits your line. So if running a lot of magma and shrieker in special I think K.D. In rare might be the best options in rare. Also good against hordes. With that said hell cannon is special, problem is dictating combats with m3  I do think kdaii can be really good in lists that ties up combat with a lot of hobos and then use kdaii and prophet on bull as flank attackers. But I have not tried this yet as I need more hobos. Might lend some night goblins though. |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jun 7, 2020 2:02:30 GMT
Depends on list. Kdaii d. is good but not as broken as people say. Against a prepared good player it is 50/50 chaffed away. But I also not as fond of filling my special and rare with only WMs as it then hard to win as soon as the RnF hits your line. So if running a lot of magma and shrieker in special I think K.D. In rare might be the best options in rare. Also good against hordes. With that said hell cannon is special, problem is dictating combats with m3 I do think kdaii can be really good in lists that ties up combat with a lot of hobos and then use kdaii and prophet on bull as flank attackers. But I have not tried this yet as I need more hobos. Might lend some night goblins though. I agree with you that it is dangerous to overfill an army list with war machines. It's fun for the first turn or two, but after that, not so much so! In regards to the hobos tying up a unit and the K'daai flanking it, I don't feel that is a tactically sound idea. There is an old Tomb Kings rule that you never put your constructs (Sphinx, Ushabti, Necro-Knights, etc.) into the same combat as your skeletons. Even more so than the constructs, the K'daai are extremely hard to put unsaved wounds on. However, they are unstable, and hobgoblins (like skeletons) absolutely bleed combat resolution. A savvy opponent will direct every last possible attack into the hobgoblins to rack up combat resolution. Then the K'daai crumble away even if they themselves were not wounded. If you want to tie a unit up, it is better to use something resilient like Infernal Guard with sword & board. They will tie up the opponent just the same, but will not give up combat resolution very easily (and will pitch into carnage more than the hobos would). Hobos are a great tarpit, but when pairing with a unstable K'daai flanker, it is best to go with a true anvil unit like IG. IMHO. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 19, 2020 14:01:01 GMT
Depends on list. Kdaii d. is good but not as broken as people say. Against a prepared good player it is 50/50 chaffed away. But I also not as fond of filling my special and rare with only WMs as it then hard to win as soon as the RnF hits your line. So if running a lot of magma and shrieker in special I think K.D. In rare might be the best options in rare. Also good against hordes. With that said hell cannon is special, problem is dictating combats with m3 I do think kdaii can be really good in lists that ties up combat with a lot of hobos and then use kdaii and prophet on bull as flank attackers. But I have not tried this yet as I need more hobos. Might lend some night goblins though. I agree with you that it is dangerous to overfill an army list with war machines. It's fun for the first turn or two, but after that, not so much so! In regards to the hobos tying up a unit and the K'daai flanking it, I don't feel that is a tactically sound idea. There is an old Tomb Kings rule that you never put your constructs (Sphinx, Ushabti, Necro-Knights, etc.) into the same combat as your skeletons. Even more so than the constructs, the K'daai are extremely hard to put unsaved wounds on. However, they are unstable, and hobgoblins (like skeletons) absolutely bleed combat resolution. A savvy opponent will direct every last possible attack into the hobgoblins to rack up combat resolution. Then the K'daai crumble away even if they themselves were not wounded. If you want to tie a unit up, it is better to use something resilient like Infernal Guard with sword & board. They will tie up the opponent just the same, but will not give up combat resolution very easily (and will pitch into carnage more than the hobos would). Hobos are a great tarpit, but when pairing with a unstable K'daai flanker, it is best to go with a true anvil unit like IG. IMHO. Just to say that while I agree with the general principle the Kdaii Destroyer can sometimes overwhelm the standard construct/skeleton principle for tomb kings as it has a significantly higher damage output than any of TK constructs. Against infantry it should do enough damage to win combat and the hobgoblins might remove steadfast. I can confirm that the construct/skeleton principle is indeed valid having had a nicely flanking Necrosphinx melted due to foolishly also front charging in with some skeletons (the banner, stubborn break and rank bonus will be worth it at the time I told myself). Now I try to bring the skeletons up to threaten the flank or rear charged unit if it reforms and the Sphinx can somehow survive 2 combat rounds. I personally lean towards 2x Hellcannon and Destroyer of your 2 options but can see how the double destroyer build (both being super fast) could be great in some matchups. I'd be curious as to how a double destroyer and lamassu/bull taurus prophet build would go with 3 lightning fast (for Chaos dwarfs) threats. Could you not do 2 destroyers and a unit of Wolf Riders at 3000? |
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Post by NIGHTBRINGER on Jun 20, 2020 1:11:52 GMT
Just to say that while I agree with the general principle the Kdaii Destroyer can sometimes overwhelm the standard construct/skeleton principle for tomb kings as it has a significantly higher damage output than any of TK constructs. Against infantry it should do enough damage to win combat and the hobgoblins might remove steadfast. I can confirm that the construct/skeleton principle is indeed valid having had a nicely flanking Necrosphinx melted due to foolishly also front charging in with some skeletons (the banner, stubborn break and rank bonus will be worth it at the time I told myself). Now I try to bring the skeletons up to threaten the flank or rear charged unit if it reforms and the Sphinx can somehow survive 2 combat rounds. I personally lean towards 2x Hellcannon and Destroyer of your 2 options but can see how the double destroyer build (both being super fast) could be great in some matchups. I'd be curious as to how a double destroyer and lamassu/bull taurus prophet build would go with 3 lightning fast (for Chaos dwarfs) threats. Could you not do 2 destroyers and a unit of Wolf Riders at 3000? That's something to consider in regards to the Hobgoblins + Destroyer. I guess it will come down to what you are facing. Against single attack models, the Hobgoblin losses will likely be overtaken by the Destroyer's output. And if you need to break a steadfast unit, the Hobgoblins are definitely an option (although I'd still prefer a sword and board unit of Infernal Guard). Against a sufficiently large sized tarpit unit, the Hobgolbins would be amazing, as their losses would be minimal, and they may be able to eliminate the enemy's steadfast. On the other hand, if you were facing a unit of Savage Orc Big'uns with extra hand weapons, then the Hobgoblin loses will likely overwhelm the Destroyer. The double Hellcannon + Destroyer build is probably the most balanced of the ones I presented. A pair of Hellcannons are very useful in protecting your other warmachines. A double destroyer + Bale Taurus build (maybe alongside some speedy bull centaurs or Fireborn) would be quite an interesting rush build. That is a lot of hitting power coming at the enemy very quickly. I really wish the Bale Taurus had some sort of Scaly Skin save. Having no save at all leaves it very vulnerable to things like poison. Chaos Dwarfs have some pretty slow core (limited to M3 or M4), but outside of core, they have several speedy selections. 2X Destroyers + Wolf Riders in 3000 points is definitely doable. I usually go with the Khan to fulfill my chaff requirements, but the Wolf Riders present an equally viable alternative! |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 20, 2020 5:10:50 GMT
Have you ever fielded the Chaos Seige giant?
I wish it had hell bound.
Definitely give the wolf riders a try alongside double destroyers next time but field them in addition to your usual Khans. Super chaff mode initiate!
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