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Post by Mr Blank on Mar 22, 2021 11:37:17 GMT
After watching this Squarehammer thing on youtube www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7q4lqHbUAE I gave the Warhammer Armies Project 9th Edition rules a read last week and was wondering if anyone here had read them / played a game using their rules? At first glance it does seem to fix most of the problems people have with 8th while not being a drastic change, with the biggest changes being steadfast, magic phase, hordes not giving extra attacks, can't have more ranks than files and all elves not having ASF. Also the rules incorporate some of the AoS models and allow for models on bigger bases which would allow circle bases to be used on a movement tray. Would you be happy for The Old World to look similar to this or would you want more radical changes from 8th? Or is it EEFL all the way with no changes!?
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Post by mottdon on Mar 22, 2021 11:59:03 GMT
I need to give it a read when I get a moment. It's hard to make an accurate analysis when you don't know the content.
My first impression when you say "no ASF for Elves, no steadfast, no horde rules, ect." is to cringe. Okay, Elves get ASF taken away, but what do they gain in return to make them a viable army? Especially Wood Elves? They are super fragile and EXPENSIVE. ASF was their edge. Take that away, what do they have to keep them from becoming the bottom 3 armies? Things like that. Hopefully, the Armies Project addresses all that. I don't know because I haven't looked into it. But I'd give those things some serious consideration before throwing them in the dumpster.
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Post by gorfung on Mar 22, 2021 15:41:48 GMT
i kind of agree with the steadfast rule, it works like troops would in battle rather then 1 guy in front just yelling hes too strong run away! then 50 guys run from 1 guy on a horse
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Post by Naitsabes on Mar 22, 2021 15:50:54 GMT
I haven't looked at his 9th edition mostly because I don't have major beef with 8th (and because staying with the lowest common denominator helps with finding an opponent locally, there are a gazillion 9th editions).
Just wanted to clarify: there are WAP books for 'our' 8th edition (that's what the guy originally put out). He has rewritten all (most?) of the books for his 9th edition but all older material is still on his website. so, even if you do want to keep your ASF elves, WAP has good content to offer.
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Post by mottdon on Mar 22, 2021 19:04:01 GMT
i kind of agree with the steadfast rule, it works like troops would in battle rather then 1 guy in front just yelling hes too strong run away! then 50 guys run from 1 guy on a horse Lol, this brings to mind the scene in LotR, when Sauron is sending guys flying left and right. The units were still hanging around though!
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Post by Mr Blank on Mar 22, 2021 21:59:26 GMT
I agree I don't have a big problem with steadfast, it changes it so you lose steadfast if you're disrupted, and also makes it a bit easier to disrupt using cavalry (only 5 models needed instead of an extra rank)
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Post by snyggejygge on Mar 26, 2021 11:33:39 GMT
Haven´t tried them myself yet, but my biggest gripe with 8th edition is the spells (fixed in our meta by removing irresistable force), horde formation allowing an extra rank to strike (which we also fixed by just saying horde formations get double ranks to represent the horde feeling) & the fact that you can´t disrupt steadfast, if you could disrupt that with a flank or rear charge it would also make cavalry much better.
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Post by snyggejygge on Mar 26, 2021 11:38:13 GMT
i kind of agree with the steadfast rule, it works like troops would in battle rather then 1 guy in front just yelling hes too strong run away! then 50 guys run from 1 guy on a horse Still a flank charge or rear charge should do more than leave the unit steadfast without any penalty to LD, it makes less sense that no body cares about a cavalry charge to the flank or rear. Besides if one guy was like the hulk, I think when people realize it, they would run rather than just stand there & sacrifice themselves.
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Post by mottdon on Mar 26, 2021 12:08:35 GMT
Well, maybe the answer should be to drop the extra rank attacks in Horde formation, but make steadfast be disrupted ONLY if the unit is longer than it is wide. Then the benefit to taking horde formation becomes retaining steadfast instead of adding more attacks. At the same time, it leaves tarpits, like Skaven Slaves, vulnerable to losing Steadfast.
It also works thematically. More people facing down a flank charge, the more likely they'll cause a panic.
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Post by knoffles on Mar 28, 2021 9:39:09 GMT
After watching this Squarehammer thing on youtube www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7q4lqHbUAE I gave the Warhammer Armies Project 9th Edition rules a read last week and was wondering if anyone here had read them / played a game using their rules? At first glance it does seem to fix most of the problems people have with 8th while not being a drastic change, with the biggest changes being steadfast, magic phase, hordes not giving extra attacks, can't have more ranks than files and all elves not having ASF. Also the rules incorporate some of the AoS models and allow for models on bigger bases which would allow circle bases to be used on a movement tray. Would you be happy for The Old World to look similar to this or would you want more radical changes from 8th? Or is it EEFL all the way with no changes!? I quite literally posted something about this at the same time but in the 'not 8th' section . I'm quite liking a number of the changes (not all but when do you ever like every change!). For those interested, the bulk of the rules changes are in the following link: warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.com/2019/08/rules-changes-from-8th-ed-to-9th-ed.htmlIt's worth noting that it's more of an 8.5 edition as the core rules are 8th edition with fixes to a number of the biggest bugbears. Some of my favourites include: Lances and spears giving initiative bonus (+2 and +1 respectively), as well as str bonuses on the charge. Cavalry getting impact hits (1) on the charge (with some also getting devastating charge too). Disruption removing steadfast Access to certain spells being reliant on your magic level (level 1's can only choose from spells 1-3 in a spell lore, level 2 from 1-4 etc). Spell bonus restricted to +1 for level 1 & 2 and +2 for level 3 & 4. Combined with the ability to choose spells, every mage getting the signature for 'free' and changes to lord/hero percentages, it means you aren't always going to see a level 4 now. Bound spells give you a 'free' power dice when you cast them. Magic Resistance actually does something! (gives saves against things like pit of shades and dwellers) Fear gives a -1 to enemies leadership and Terror -2 The BSB only allows re-rolls from Break and Panic tests. However the Unit command then allows re-rolls for other things. Champion - march block and pursuit restrain. Musician still allows swift reforms. You can shoot into combat if within 4" (though with a chance of hitting your own side) You only need a 2+ to hit if your WS is over double that of your opponent. Ward saves are capped at 4+ Armour Piercing can stack Poison is +1 to wound. Regen is used as a 3rd saving if armour/ward have failed. Saves from monsters and riders stack, whether ward or armour (regen uses the highest), so a 3+ scaly skin from a dragon and 5+ 'medium' armour would give the combined model a 1+ save - though with monsters and riders, a 1 & 2 always fails for armour rolls. When attacking them, it works in the same way as monstrous cav does in 8th. Another fairly big change is to some of the weapons. Great weapons give +1 Str normally but a -2 to initiative and an additional +1 str in the first round of combat. This is possibly the biggest loser but i'm not minding the change as much now. Spears and Pikes give the normal bonus to ranks if they are charged but also give +initiative bonuses if they are charged and +1 str bonus if charged by Cav/monsters/monstrous infantry etc. mottdon - you are right that some of the elves have taken a hit with the removal of ASF. They do get an innate 6+ ward (dodge) vs melee. High elf martial prowess is now re-rolls of 1's and lilleths blessing is back to the +1 to dispel. Swordmasters ignore the initiative penalty from great swords. White lions don't but get the old (4th?) edition rules where they can make 1 of 3 special attacks with their axes. For wood elves, the enchanted arrows have changed. Wildriders and Rangers get str 4 base. Waywatchers regain the 4th ed traps rules. You regain the chariots from 3rd ed as well as the elves who can change into animal aspects (a person favourite) and Dryads also get the 4th edition tree aspect rules. I can't comment on balance but it does seem that it tries to bring in the best from multiple editions.
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Post by knoffles on Mar 28, 2021 9:48:31 GMT
Well, maybe the answer should be to drop the extra rank attacks in Horde formation, but make steadfast be disrupted ONLY if the unit is longer than it is wide. Then the benefit to taking horde formation becomes retaining steadfast instead of adding more attacks. At the same time, it leaves tarpits, like Skaven Slaves, vulnerable to losing Steadfast. It also works thematically. More people facing down a flank charge, the more likely they'll cause a panic. his 9th changes formations slightly so you can’t have a unit with more ranks than frontage, so if you want your 6 ranks, you have to be at least 6 wide (though likely this was to remove conga lines). He also reintroduced unit strength and this impacts on whether you can disrupt.
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Post by oldmandan on Mar 29, 2021 19:49:07 GMT
Not a fan of the warhammer armies project. A lot of nerfs that are dressed up as changes. Really did not like their version of the Skaven book to be honest, sent us back to the bad old days of 6th edition.
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Post by Horace on Mar 30, 2021 8:47:36 GMT
Personally, I am more in favour of 8th + a couple of house rules/homebrew rules for new models etc, if you really have an issue with certain things.
I'm not generally a fan of these "new" editions, they have the same balancing and rule problems as the GW editions, just different ones.
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Post by mottdon on Mar 30, 2021 11:27:54 GMT
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Post by oldmandan on Mar 30, 2021 12:29:28 GMT
I agree, a couple of simple well thought house rules, for instance my friend and I reintroduced plus one bonus for outnumber and the ability to disrupt a unit. Overall I don't believe 8th needed that much in the way of tweaking. I can see why capping ward save at 4+ but how many characters have access to that?
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