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Post by strutsagget on May 10, 2021 13:40:19 GMT
So let’s say a warlock engineer and a grey seer ar both in each separate corner in front row.
They get charged by a lord on an eagle. Lord maximize models in fight by touching grey seer and two more models. To hopefully kill grey seer.
Skaven player is smart and issues a challenge with engineer. Lord must accept and moves over to other side no longer in base contact with the grey seer.
In challenge he kills the engineer.
Where does he end up? Back in first position or still in the position of the challenge out of reach from the grey seer?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 10, 2021 15:41:55 GMT
It is not as such covered in the rules. Since the rule specifies to move the model, but not to move him back, this would indicate that he stays put.
There is a certain similarity with "Make Way," where "Once the unit is no longer in close combat, such characters automatically return to the front rank of their unit at the start of their following Movement phase," but, of course, "Make Way" specifies the return, and, even if it had not, you would have to apply the general rule that characters must be placed in the front rank as soon as there is a place available.
It is perhaps best to dice it off.
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Post by strutsagget on May 10, 2021 17:27:42 GMT
It is not as such covered in the rules. Since the rule specifies to move the model, but not to move him back, this would indicate that he stays put. There is a certain similarity with "Make Way," where "Once the unit is no longer in close combat, such characters automatically return to the front rank of their unit at the start of their following Movement phase," but, of course, "Make Way" specifies the return, and, even if it had not, you would have to apply the general rule that characters must be placed in the front rank as soon as there is a place available. It is perhaps best to dice it off. But I guess you can also combat reform back to the gray seer as long as same amount of models is in combat? Or does it have to be the exact same models I never remember:) |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 10, 2021 19:34:36 GMT
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Post by DiscoQing on May 11, 2021 20:17:02 GMT
I'd say the Eagle didn't have to move out of position from the Grey Seer in the first place...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 11, 2021 21:59:51 GMT
He did, as he could not refuse the challenge, and was able to be moved.
BRB p. 101: "A character cannot refuse a challenge if his model cannot be placed so that he is not in base contact with an enemy model — he can't evade his opponent and so must fight for his life. This most commonly happens if a lone character is the subject of a challenge, or if his unit is small and engaged on all fronts, so that every model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy."
"If a character accepts the challenge, move him into base contact with the challenger — after all, what good is the narrative of a challenge without the visual reality? If, for whatever reason, this is not possible, assume that the two models are in base contact."
BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p. 11:
Q: After accepting a challenge must the challenged model always move into base contact with the enemy model that issued the challenge? (p102)
A: If the challenged model is on his own then he must move into base contact. If the challenged model is in a unit he must move as long as it does not require leaving his unit. Where it is not possible for base contact to be made then leave the models where they are and simply assume that the two models are in base contact.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 11, 2021 22:11:51 GMT
That said, he could have avoided this by issuing a challenge first, and, if the Skaven player refuses, choosing the champion to be moved to the back. Of course, he would have had to know that that is possible.
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Post by strutsagget on May 12, 2021 15:08:43 GMT
That said, he could have avoided this by issuing a challenge first, and, if the Skaven player refuses, choosing the champion to be moved to the back. Of course, he would have had to know that that is possible. I took a gamble he would forget the challenge as the game was in a loosing position. Do you roll of to see who challenge first? Can you respond with a challenge? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 12, 2021 16:12:51 GMT
BRB p. 101: "The "side whose turn it is has the opportunity to issue a challenge first. If that side chooses not to, then the other side can issue a challenge."
Since you charged, you had first choice.
Note that champions can accept challenges, but cannot be placed in the back, if the challenge is refused. However, that is different for Skaven.
Skaven Official Update Version 1.7, p.1: "Page 33 – Verminous Valour.
Change the second paragraph to “If a Skaven player refuses a challenge, a Skaven character or champion is placed in the back rank as normal and may not attack, but the unit may still use the model’s Leadership value.”
So, if he refuses the challenge, you can move the champion to the back and the Lord can attack the Grey Seer; and if he accepts, his champion will move in btb with the Lord, who himself will remain in btb with the Grey Seer. So, if the Lord then kills the champion, he can attack the Grey Seer next round of CC.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 12, 2021 16:24:52 GMT
On a side note: many wave AB>BRB as a magic wand in rules discussions. However, that is only in the case of an actual conflict, like we have here.
BRB p. 101: "he may not nominate a character that could not have accepted the challenge, or a unit champion — champions can accept challenges, they do not have to."
Skaven OUV 1.7 p. 1: "a Skaven character or champion is placed in the back rank"
These two cannot be reconciled in any way; hence AB>BRB.
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Post by strutsagget on May 13, 2021 5:56:32 GMT
In this case unless he forgot to challenge it didn’t matter as he had the busted skaven spell “skitted leap” to just move the grey seer. It was a one time shot in my combat  Am I the only one thinking the Skaven spells are a bit wrongly priced? |
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Post by DiscoQing on May 13, 2021 19:20:59 GMT
Different edition issues 😬
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 14, 2021 9:52:23 GMT
Yes, another ghost of editions past: in 6th & 7th, only models already in btb contact with an enemy model were able to issue/accept challenges.
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Post by oldmandan on May 24, 2021 12:12:13 GMT
Yeah I see what you're saying there, unfortunately you got Gav trapped (my mate Gav started doing this way back in 5th edition and again caught me out) where a pointless challenge was issued to mess up your combat by trapping your lord. I would say once moved you don't move back unless another challenge was issued and always dispel skitterleap as it often results in something nasty coming your way.
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