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Post by countelector on May 17, 2021 4:20:48 GMT
Hello!
In the bretonnia armybook it says "Note that every Bretonnian army must include at least one unit of Knights of the realm." and the unit entry has a "+1" in front of the name.
But in the last faq they tell you ti ignore the second paragraph on page 68. And thats this text: "Note that every Bretonnian army must include at least one unit of Knights of the realm."
But they dont say anything about the +1 before the name.
So do I have to take one unit of knights of the realm or dont?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 17, 2021 7:19:28 GMT
Here is one we prepared earlier: I would agree with chaosreigns that the requirement for at least one unit of KotR no longer exists. It is not just that the ammendments delete the relevant paragraph in the side bar. Bretonnia Official Update Version 1.6, p. 2: also specifies: Page 64-65 – Marshalling the Host. Ignore these pages and use the rules for ‘Choosing Your Army’in the Warhammer rulebook. However, these deleted rules were the basis for applying the numbers: "In some cases other limitations and/or requirements may apply to a particular kind of unit. This is specified in the unit entry. For example, Knights of the Realm have a +1 note in front of their entry, denoting that at least one unit of them must always be taken. Other units, such as Grail Knights, are accompanied by a note (ie. 0-1) explaining that a maximum of one unit of this kind can be included in the army." Since this basis is null and void, and the BRB does not contain anything similar, the numbers as such are null and void too. |
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Post by Horace on May 17, 2021 10:02:15 GMT
Would that basis not apply in parallel to the compulsory BSB thing too then? I thought the opposite conclusion was reached in that case. The requirement is laid out in the Marshalling the Host part (which you are then told to ignore), but they have not deleted the sidebar entry in a similar way to not removing the number requirements? (True they have specifically deleted other sidebar paragraph, but then they have not specifically deleted the number requirements..) I would personally play it without number/BSB requirements but that's just my 2c as a non-Bret owning/playing person  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 17, 2021 12:06:58 GMT
The fact that they have deleted the old Army List requirements has no impact whatsoever on the BSB requirement in the BSB rules, which may differ in various Army Books. In the Lizardman AB, the BSB rules have various AB specific exemptions and limitations. Likewise, in the Bretonnia AB, it still specifically states that one Paladin must be upgraded to a BSB.
In Warhammer, anything must be covered by a rule. 1+ (or 0-1, for that matter) is just a number, not a rule. Since the actual rule that governs the number has been rescinded, the number has lost all meaning.
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Post by strutsagget on May 17, 2021 14:28:29 GMT
Is minimum never defined in brb?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 17, 2021 15:53:11 GMT
Since this basis is null and void, and the BRB does not contain anything similar, the numbers as such are null and void too. |
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Post by countelector on May 17, 2021 17:41:09 GMT
Alright! Thanks for the answers!
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Post by DiscoQing on May 19, 2021 0:54:16 GMT
So are peg knights, grail knights/reliquaes still 0-1 choices?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 19, 2021 7:43:35 GMT
Grail Knights and Reliquiae not; Pegasus Knights yes, because of the still existing special rule in the sidebar on p. 66 and 70.
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Post by Horace on May 19, 2021 11:44:28 GMT
Can I ask why? I don't see this restriction lifted for Grail Knights etc unless you blanket apply this (which would then remove all number restrictions and the BSB requirement AFAIK):
Marshalling the Host
Choosing Troops
.. In some cases other limitations and/or requirements may apply to a particular kind of unit entry. For example, Knights of the Realm have a 1+ note in front of them must always be taken. Other units, such as Grail Knights, are accompanied by a note (ie,0-1) explaining that a maximum of one unit of this kind can be included in the army.
...However, a Brettonian army must always include at least 2 characters: the General and the Army Battle Standard Bearer.
FAQ
Page 64-65 – Marshalling the Host.
Ignore these pages and use the rules for ‘Choosing Your Army’
in the Warhammer rulebook.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 19, 2021 12:11:41 GMT
This was already answered here: The fact that they have deleted the old Army List requirements has no impact whatsoever on the BSB requirement in the BSB rules, which may differ in various Army Books. In the Lizardman AB, the BSB rules have various AB specific exemptions and limitations. Likewise, in the Bretonnia AB, it still specifically states that one Paladin must be upgraded to a BSB. In Warhammer, anything must be covered by a rule. 1+ (or 0-1, for that matter) is just a number, not a rule. Since the actual rule that governs the number has been rescinded, the number has lost all meaning. To expand a bit: "Marshalling the Host" had a requirement for both a General and, in the case of Bretonnia, a BSB. "Marshalling the Host" is not valid anymore, but that does not invalidate other existing rules regarding General or BSB. Why do you still require a General? Because the BRB rules say so. Likewise, every Army Book has in its Army List (under Heroes) a sidebar "Battle Standard Bearer," which lists the AB specific requirements and options for the BSB. It is fairly generic in many ABs, but some have additional requirements or exemptions (like Lizardmen). Those specific BSB rules still require Bretonnia to have "one Paladin...who must be upgraded to a Battle Standard Bearer at no additional cost" (Bretonnia AB p. 67). |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 19, 2021 13:21:51 GMT
To add: the number system is a relic of 6th edition and was already abolished in the 7th edition. It remained by default in 6th edition ABs that had not received an new AB, and Bretonnia's "Marshalling the Host" remained valid during 7th edition.
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Post by Horace on May 19, 2021 13:57:56 GMT
Grail Knights and Reliquiae not; Pegasus Knights yes, because of the still existing special rule in the sidebar on p. 66 and 70. Ah I see what you're saying. So the special rule in the sidebar makes the 0-1 count? Even though the 0-1 is deemed meaningless in the other cases? Just seems very inconsistent |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 19, 2021 16:17:24 GMT
Well, consistency never was their middle name. It does not really look like an oversight, since the special rule occurs twice. Perhaps it was just inertia, or they wanted to retain some extra benefit for the Lord on Pegasus. I would rather have changed that to "A Bretonnian Lord who is riding a Royal Pegasus can join a unit of Pegasus Knights."
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 21, 2021 16:58:02 GMT
If I am allowed to put my rules' lawyer's wig on, for a moment (rising and clearing the throat):
- Mylord, in Warhammer, anything must be covered by a rule, either in the BRB or in the Army Books.
Concerning "Marshalling the Host," the Bretonnia Update Version specifically states to "ignore these pages and use the rules for ‘Choosing Your Army.’" If your Lordship pleases, let us do exactly that: ignore those pages. They have passed on. These rules are no more. They have ceased to be. They expired. THESE ARE EX-RULES! Let us instead turn, as directed, to the relevant chapter of the BRB.
The BRB chapter on "Choosing Your Army" does not contain a rule detailing numbers as limitation of units as such. It does, however, have a rule where numbers indicate how many duplicate choices one can take. As your Lordship is undoubtedly aware, an "army cannot contain more than 3 Special choices of the same type and 2 Rare choices of the same type."
Now, the "Choosing Your Army" rules do state: "Some units are listed as taking up a single choice, for example 1-2 Chaos Spawn can be taken as a single Rare choice. As implied, this means that these two units count only as one choice. So a Warriors of Chaos army of 2,000 points could contain between 1 and 4 Chaos Spawn. If it included 1 or 2, they would count as a single Rare choice; if it included 3 or 4 they would count as two Rare choices" (BRB p. 135).
Except in the case for Pegasus Knights, the updated Army Book itself does not contain anything to the contrary. Therefore, if the numbers in the Bretonnia AB still have meaning in 8th edition terms, they would specify that taking 0-1 Grail Reliquiae would count as ... a single Special choice of the same type, and 0-1 Grail Knights as a single Rare choice of the same type. Hence, one can take up to 3 Grail Reliquiae and up to 2 Grail Knight units in a standard Army List. Whether that would be a prudent choice is, of course, a different matter altogether.
I rest my case. (sits down again, looking smug and conceited)
Note that, as far as I am aware, those Chaos Spawn are, in fact, the only example of this, and an example from the 7th edition AB to boot. It was dropped in the 8th edition Warriors of Chaos AB, and the rule does not seem to have any practical application anymore.
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