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Post by jamesacon on Feb 16, 2022 9:54:03 GMT
Hi all,
I am planning on building some terradons for my lizardmen army. And I was going to make Tiktaq'to. Now from my understanding in the rule book it states that characters can not join flying units. Now things get a little confusing with Tiktaq'to, firstly he has ambush but he can give ambush to a unit of terradons for 5 points a model. Which would imply you can ambush with them. Secondly he has a magic item called the 'mask of heavens' "Enchanted item. All terradons in Tiktaq'to's unit use his weapon skill instead of their own. In addition, enemy units suffer an additional -1 To Hit penalty when shooting Tiktaq'to and his unit."
Can he join Terradons? If not, then what the hell?!
Thanks
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Post by baaderthegreat on Feb 16, 2022 12:33:44 GMT
Strictly speaking, he can't - there's no sentence in the Lizardman book that explicitely states that the "no characters in flying units" rule is no longer valid.
However, in our gaming group we allowed it, for several reasons: - "All terradons in Tiktaq'to's unit..." It is terradons (plural), so it cannot only apply to his own terradon, there must be a way for other terradons to be in the unit. - His fluff descibes how he leads terradon riders into battle.
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Post by jamesacon on Feb 16, 2022 20:50:24 GMT
Strictly speaking, he can't - there's no sentence in the Lizardman book that explicitely states that the "no characters in flying units" rule is no longer valid.
However, in our gaming group we allowed it, for several reasons: - "All terradons in Tiktaq'to's unit..." It is terradons (plural), so it cannot only apply to his own terradon, there must be a way for other terradons to be in the unit. - His fluff descibes how he leads terradon riders into battle.
Thanks for the reply. I will have to ask my gaming mates, I'm sure no one will not allow me. My assumption is that the author of the army book forgot to add a rule allowing Tiktaq'to to join Terradons because he is classified as monstrous cavlary. If lizardmen got an FAQ I'm sure it would of been added there. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 18, 2022 20:01:33 GMT
Well, the fact that he is monstrous cavalry does not really matter, since it applies to all troop types. There are two possibilities here: the writer forgot to add an exemption to the general rule, or it was a draft rule ultimately rejected, which they forgot to excise from the final version. The former seems more likely than the latter.
To repeat here some of my basic principles:
1. RAW=RAI, unless there are clear indications to the contrary.
2. What are clear indications to the contrary? Primarily, if the following are transgressed upon:
- a rule must be playable
- it is the same game in all language versions
RAW, Tiktaq'to cannot join a unit of Terradons, but then the rule becomes unplayable.
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Post by 1plussave on Feb 21, 2022 0:13:00 GMT
What if he joined a unit of Skinks to which another character riding a Terradon then joined, neither has joined a flying unit and now Tiktaq'to's rule applies to a Terradon in his unit.
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Post by vulcan on Feb 21, 2022 6:24:03 GMT
What if he joined a unit of Skinks to which another character riding a Terradon then joined, neither has joined a flying unit and now Tiktaq'to's rule applies to a Terradon in his unit. That may techinically be possible (or maybe not, not quite sure, the 'cannot join flyers' rule might still prevent it). It's pretty useless if you actually do it, though. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 21, 2022 8:56:10 GMT
Yes, it is technically possible, since both characters would join a non-flying unit, but as vulcan points out, it would be pretty useless. |
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Post by 1plussave on Feb 22, 2022 22:11:42 GMT
Yes, it is technically possible, since both characters would join a non-flying unit, but as vulcan points out, it would be pretty useless. Unless you need to point out the rule isn't technically unplayable and win an argument no-one was having. |
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Post by vulcan on Feb 23, 2022 4:11:39 GMT
Yes, it is technically possible, since both characters would join a non-flying unit, but as vulcan points out, it would be pretty useless. Unless you need to point out the rule isn't technically unplayable and win an argument no-one was having. No one here, yes, but you can expect to run into the argument sooner or later. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Feb 23, 2022 8:39:44 GMT
Well, I probably should have copied an earlier post on this issue: It is certainly a GW mistake. Either they overlooked to include an exemption, or it was a discarded rule that they failed to delete from the AB. I am a firm proponent of RAW=RAI, but there are two unwritten RAI everyone should be able to agree with: 1. The game is the same in all language versions 2. A rule must be playable Strictly speaking, the rule in question is still playable, but, like sedge , I would allow Tiktaq'to to join a unit of Terradons. |
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Post by 1plussave on Feb 23, 2022 23:49:39 GMT
Unless you need to point out the rule isn't technically unplayable and win an argument no-one was having. No one here, yes, but you can expect to run into the argument sooner or later. Or start it.  |
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Post by raznov on Mar 8, 2022 18:54:57 GMT
So, maybe to derail the thread slightly / throw more oil on the fire; why _can't_ characters join flying units? By that I mean, why does the BRB rule exist - which exploit are they trying to avoid?
Anyone any suggestions?
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Post by vulcan on Mar 9, 2022 3:55:32 GMT
The (granted, fluff) logic given was that characters wouldn't risk getting clobbered by the flapping wings. I don't recall any other reason being given.
Might be to keep dragonriders from joining units of, say, harpies... but I'm pretty sure there's a separate rule barring monsters from joining units, so...
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Post by thegoat on Mar 9, 2022 3:57:17 GMT
So, maybe to derail the thread slightly / throw more oil on the fire; why _can't_ characters join flying units? By that I mean, why does the BRB rule exist - which exploit are they trying to avoid? Anyone any suggestions? Maybe something related to the Bretonnian flying circus lists that were popular in 6th and 7th edition? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 9, 2022 9:37:52 GMT
@the goat: In 6th & 7th edition, Bretonnian characters could not join flying units either. Having a Lord on Pegasus just removed the 0-1 limitation of Pegasus Knights. The fluff logic changed over time. In the 6th BRB, it was said that characters were using bigger monsters who were less maneuverable and would hinder the more nimble flyers of units. The 7th BRB gave no fluff reason at all.
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