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Post by grandmasterwang on Nov 15, 2022 14:19:13 GMT
This may help... 1, pre combat 2, after moving characters... Please use imagination for any adjustment in unit size/formation. Great illustrations 👍. I guess if the total knight size is 12 then I'd say that looks correct that the Paladins would 'block' the Orc attacks. I was thinking the knight unit was 15 total from the other post meaning some Orcs could kill the normal knights due to the extra rank/flank length. Warhammer is such a great game with so many nuances...I'm just thinking that your picture could actually be that unit of 15 knights...that had lost 3 to impact hits from the Wolf Chariot.... enabling the Paladins to block the Orcs....
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 15, 2022 16:35:49 GMT
Do not forget: when charging, you have to maximise the number of models in CC. If there is an additional rank of knights, the chariot and Orcs would need to be postioned at least one square lower to bring the extra rank in CC, but not more than two, because otherwise the champion would not be be in CC, and you would not have maximised the models in CC. Of course, this is assuming that the footprints are more or less correctly depicted.
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Post by 1plussave on Nov 15, 2022 23:26:24 GMT
As an unrelated question; what happens to that bottom Paladin when the unit gets dropped below 10 models? Is he forced into the 3rd rank when the 4th disappears and must hope for a reform to get him back in the fight? Can he choose which position he drops into?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 16, 2022 15:17:18 GMT
That is a good question, and one that does not seem to be covered in the BRB. On the one hand, the formation should be maintained; on the other, models in CC should be maintained in CC. Of course the whole issue could be prevented by a combat reform after the first round. If you do put the Paladin the the centre of the 3rd rank, he could Make Way! again to the upper right corner in the next round, thus shielding the R&F again. If your opponent is fine with that.... Otherwise, leave the Paladin and simply remove the necessary models from the left file.
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Post by Horace on Nov 16, 2022 15:41:42 GMT
I think you can only make way once, at the start of the combat?
In that situation it is unlikely the Paladin would find himself out of combat, the only way this would happen is through a casualty from another Paladin or the unit champion, in which case I think you could just bump them up one? (since all the actual knights are hiding behind the wall). I'm not sure this bumping is directly covered in the rules but seems the cleanest way to do it
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 16, 2022 16:55:02 GMT
Quite so: the start of combat, not the start of the combat round, as I erroneously thought. In the scenario of 1plussave , the champion must have been killed already, because otherwise no R&F members could have been killed either. If you bump the Paladins up one, the end result would be similar to the illegal Make Way! move above, except that you do it immediately. However, that has no basis in the rules either.
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Post by 1plussave on Nov 16, 2022 22:46:05 GMT
Quite so: the start of combat, not the start of the combat round, as I erroneously thought. In the scenario of 1plussave , the champion must have been killed already, because otherwise no R&F members could have been killed either. If you bump the Paladins up one, the end result would be similar to the illegal Make Way! move above, except that you do it immediately. However, that has no basis in the rules either. Impact hits and errant shooting or magic could accomplish the deed, indeed, there is a chariot already inside the house combat.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 16, 2022 23:22:55 GMT
Yes, that could happen too, but has no real relevance to the problem. Either you maintain the formation, but bring the character in CC out of CC; or you keep the character in CC, but ignore the formation.
Regarding changing position again after a Make Way! move, there is only this tidbit of information (BRB p. 100): "Once the unit is no longer in close combat, such characters automatically return to the front rank of their unit at the start of their following Movement phase" which seems to indicate that the character stays in place, until the end of CC, but is sufficiently vague to allow other interpretations.
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Post by quenelles84 on Nov 17, 2022 7:56:06 GMT
Thanks all. The diagram above is pretty much how it happened although the champion would be in the second row - as the Paladins displace him, (as per lance formation), but as per the point made earlier the champ would then have to move to the front when the paladins move (so second diagram correct) - although I actually played that bit wrong at the time.
It's interesting you mention issue of Paladin position as R&F units get killed, as this was indeed an issue during the combat, we just kept the paladins locked in combat (as you can't take them out of combat), but I see that it's debatable what should happen.
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