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Post by wundapantz on Mar 5, 2023 13:29:51 GMT
I also look at what the shield does, and how much it costs. Generally you are told not to waste points on Sheilds and take more bodies...
A shield on my goblins costs 0.5 points and saves ~1:6 wounds... 6 goblins with Sheilds and bows cost 4 points each (or 3.5 without)... Of which i paid 3 points for the shield.
That 1 saved goblin is also 1 saved point (or .5). It's like my unit was larger, for cheaper.
With more units of more expensive models this math is even better.
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Post by Luigino on Mar 6, 2023 14:14:07 GMT
Very interesting responses.
And not at all what I expected. I still remember discussions from 6th and 7th (when Warhammer forums of all sorts were still plenty and extremely active) where the general consensus was indeed that shields on missile troops were just a waste of points.
I'm personally glad to see it shifting
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Post by johngg on Mar 6, 2023 15:08:26 GMT
Very interesting responses. And not at all what I expected. I still remember discussions from 6th and 7th (when Warhammer forums of all sorts were still plenty and extremely active) where the general consensus was indeed that shields on missile troops were just a waste of points. I'm personally glad to see it shifting Yes but you have to remember in 6th, for example core choice cheap missile troops were mainly used simply as a tax so you could take all the spicy special / rare Cavalry |
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Post by sonofkurnos on Mar 6, 2023 15:44:31 GMT
Very interesting responses. And not at all what I expected. I still remember discussions from 6th and 7th (when Warhammer forums of all sorts were still plenty and extremely active) where the general consensus was indeed that shields on missile troops were just a waste of points. I'm personally glad to see it shifting Yes but you have to remember in 6th, for example core choice cheap missile troops were mainly used simply as a tax so you could take all the spicy special / rare Cavalry Absolutely this ! Every high elf list I wrote had 2x10 archers with no command 👌🤣 |
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Mar 6, 2023 20:26:07 GMT
Very interesting responses. And not at all what I expected. I still remember discussions from 6th and 7th (when Warhammer forums of all sorts were still plenty and extremely active) where the general consensus was indeed that shields on missile troops were just a waste of points. I'm personally glad to see it shifting Yes but you have to remember in 6th, for example core choice cheap missile troops were mainly used simply as a tax so you could take all the spicy special / rare Cavalry Is that really different from later editions? Just slots vs percentages..?
Often a sign of a low cunning.. Not understanding how to use cheap core.. But it is the usual thing with.. LEss clever people, they see the shiny stuff and think it is just better..
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Post by KevinC on Mar 7, 2023 14:26:34 GMT
I also look at what the shield does, and how much it costs. Generally you are told not to waste points on Sheilds and take more bodies... A shield on my goblins costs 0.5 points and saves ~1:6 wounds... 6 goblins with Sheilds and bows cost 4 points each (or 3.5 without)... Of which i paid 3 points for the shield. That 1 saved goblin is also 1 saved point (or .5). It's like my unit was larger, for cheaper. With more units of more expensive models this math is even better. -------------It's also important to note that a shield is not just saving a body/wound, it is potentially denying your opponent a combat resolution point and thus allowing you to win combat. |
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Post by Luigino on Mar 7, 2023 14:49:30 GMT
I wonder if there's a psychological effect at play too.
With a unit looking more defended (I.E. having an actually visible shield on the model) being less likely to be charged when other less menacing looking units are nearby.
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Post by johngg on Mar 8, 2023 20:42:00 GMT
I wonder if there's a psychological effect at play too. With a unit looking more defended (I.E. having an actually visible shield on the model) being less likely to be charged when other less menacing looking units are nearby. Definitely. People always paused before charging my Darkshards. If they hadnt had shield they would have ploughed straight into them |
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Post by gangland on Mar 9, 2023 21:19:37 GMT
I typically always go for more durability because my rolls are terrible and I need all the help I can get.
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Post by johngg on Mar 10, 2023 11:05:57 GMT
I typically always go for more durability because my rolls are terrible and I need all the help I can get. This is a legit concern for many of us! |
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Post by KevinC on Mar 10, 2023 15:16:09 GMT
Very interesting responses. And not at all what I expected. I still remember discussions from 6th and 7th (when Warhammer forums of all sorts were still plenty and extremely active) where the general consensus was indeed that shields on missile troops were just a waste of points. I'm personally glad to see it shifting ---------I don't think it's a shift. I've always been a supporter of shields and multi-purpose units. In my eyes, multi-purpose units win games. I'll never forget an old Stillmania article where Nigel states something like "never forget, your archers are also armed with swords!" Anyway, I believe I know where the confusion is - the tournament scene. To cite my knowledge on the subject, I participated in 2-4 large WFB tournaments every year from the very first US Grand Tournament in 1996 through 2015. Most tournament players are no nonsense. Meaning they are not interested in using missile troops in combat regardless of equipment. They design their army list for optimal efficiency and they want the most effective units for the cheapest amount of points possible. For example, I find High Elf Seaguard extremely versatile and effective in any edition (most tournament players will argue that they are too expensive, etc.). Anyway, tournament talk often dominated all the tactical conversations and would lead many players to only one specific play style. I never agreed with this, Stillmania's thoughts on Warhammer always resinated with me because I like to explore different strategy and make 'poor' units work, etc. (I've won to major GT tournaments over the years too, btw). My advice is try out new tactics, army designs, etc. even if others claim they won't work. It is super rewarding to make something work, when nobody else thinks it's a good idea. |
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Post by vulcan on Mar 11, 2023 16:13:36 GMT
Nothing like taking an army of units others see as 'bad' and whomping them anyway.
When you can pull it off, at least.
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Post by Grimfang Gogulk on Mar 12, 2023 17:57:07 GMT
it´s a nice feeling..  *looks at my 10 Arrer Boyz* Hmm.. |
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Post by rustynumber on Apr 7, 2023 2:35:11 GMT
Now I've only ever played Lizards on the tabletop (well they have Skinks with javs and shields I suppose...) but in the Total War games it makes complete sense that Dwarf ranged units (and other more elite armies I'm sure) can be treated as normal warriors more or less for the purpose of getting stuck in! They DON'T need to kite or get nervous when enemy chaff flanks and charges them.
Sadly on the tabletop it's perhaps a bit more that a jack-of-all is less cost effective than dedicated role units?
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Post by TyrrenAzureblade on Apr 7, 2023 17:09:58 GMT
Lothern Sea Guard. While not technically a dedicated shooting unit, they carry bows and can take shields. Since they're probably going to see close combat, you generally take the shields.
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*looks at my 10 Arrer Boyz*
