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Post by sonofkurnos on May 19, 2023 15:36:56 GMT
Hi guys, please help me get my head around this item before I start playing...
Set up
My unit - knight unit 5 wide with Grand Master with Other Trickster's Shard in the middle of front rank
Enemy unit - any 25mm wide infantry, 5 wide which have a ward save
My GM is in base to base with 3 models, he has 4 attacks... If they all hit and wound, how many models are affected by Other Trickster's Shard.
3- the amount in base contact
4- the number of attacks, assuming step up happens instantly
The knights either side of the GM, at a different initiative step , they force rerolls as the models in fron of them are also in base contact with the GM
The 2 knights on far ends are also in corner to corner base contact with models that are in base contact with the GM, do they force a reroll?
Does all of the second rank, as they are striking the same models as the front rank for e rerolls, assuming the above positions apply?
All of the knight attacks are at the same initiative, there are more attacks being made than there are models in base to base with the GM assuming they all hit and wound. Do they all force rerolls or are the rerolls limited by the number in base contact with the GM (3)
Sorry if explanations are odd, hopefully you get what I mean
Thanks!
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Post by ryryak2 on May 19, 2023 16:55:56 GMT
eefl.freeforums.net/thread/2549/trickster-shard-units-modelsThis question has come up before, here's some reading material  Summary: The character is always considered in base contact with the enemy, even if he has more attacks/kills than there are models in base contact - because models "step up" from behind. Logically I hope this makes sense, as how can a character not be considered in b2b with models he kills in melee. Rank and file who can attack enemy models in base to base with the Trickster Shard character can also force those rerolls. YOu'll just have to roll separately for them. This includes models in the second and subsequent ranks who are directly behind models that can attack. Anyone who cannot attack models in base to base with the Trickster Shard character cannot force rerolls of Ward Saves. Also remember that the Tricksters Shard affects friendly models too. Clear as mud I hope 
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Post by sonofkurnos on May 19, 2023 17:07:10 GMT
eefl.freeforums.net/thread/2549/trickster-shard-units-modelsThis question has come up before, here's some reading material Summary: The character is always considered in base contact with the enemy, even if he has more attacks/kills than there are models in base contact - because models "step up" from behind. Logically I hope this makes sense, as how can a character not be considered in b2b with models he kills in melee. Rank and file who can attack enemy models in base to base with the Trickster Shard character can also force those rerolls. YOu'll just have to roll separately for them. This includes models in the second and subsequent ranks who are directly behind models that can attack. Anyone who cannot attack models in base to base with the Trickster Shard character cannot force rerolls of Ward Saves. Also remember that the Tricksters Shard affects friendly models too. Clear as mud I hope So, assuming 5 wide Vs 5 wide, on same size bases if OTS guy is in the middle, then I'll force rerolls on ally attacks from both ranks, right? That's how I was working it out... |
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Post by ryryak2 on May 19, 2023 18:48:47 GMT
From what I understand, assuming your setup, your guy in the middle, plus his buddy to either side, plus the three guys directly behind the 3 of them are eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves. THe other 4 guys eligible to attack (2 on the ends, plus the guys behind them) are not eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves.
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Post by DiscoQing on May 21, 2023 15:49:41 GMT
What happens if a character with TOTS in a unit with a ward save is shot at by shooting?
Eg..
A Bretonnian Paladin with TOTS in a unit of 12 KotR shot at by 20 Quarrellers...
A HE Noble with ICI & TOTS, in a unit of 20 White Lions being shot at by a Helblaster Volley Gun
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Post by thegoat on May 21, 2023 16:43:39 GMT
From what I understand, assuming your setup, your guy in the middle, plus his buddy to either side, plus the three guys directly behind the 3 of them are eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves. THe other 4 guys eligible to attack (2 on the ends, plus the guys behind them) are not eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves. Regarding, "THe other 4 guys eligible to attack (2 on the ends, plus the guys behind them) are not eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves." The two guys of the ends of the first rank are kitty-corner base-to-base with enemy models who are kitty-corner base-to-base with the character holding the other trickster's shard. Can they not choose to direct their attacks at the models that are affected? |
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Post by sonofkurnos on May 21, 2023 16:54:57 GMT
From what I understand, assuming your setup, your guy in the middle, plus his buddy to either side, plus the three guys directly behind the 3 of them are eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves. THe other 4 guys eligible to attack (2 on the ends, plus the guys behind them) are not eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves. Regarding, "THe other 4 guys eligible to attack (2 on the ends, plus the guys behind them) are not eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves." The two guys of the ends of the first rank are kitty-corner base-to-base with enemy models who are kitty-corner base-to-base with the character holding the other trickster's shard. Can they not choose to direct their attacks at the models that are affected? This was my thought process 100% FvonSigmaringen any input here? |
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Post by vulcan on May 22, 2023 3:26:01 GMT
What happens if a character with TOTS in a unit with a ward save is shot at by shooting? Eg.. A Bretonnian Paladin with TOTS in a unit of 12 KotR shit at by 20 Quarrellers... A HE Noble with ICI & TOTS, in a unit of 20 White Lions being shot at by a Helblaster Volley Gun I think the player whose unit is being shot gets to allocate hits one to a model, so he can allocate hits to models not in base contact with OTS first, and only allocate hits to affected models if needed. |
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Post by DiscoQing on May 22, 2023 6:20:56 GMT
I thought as long as there are more than 5 models in the unit, characters cannot be hit - so it always the unit.
But e.g. Quarrellers & Helblasters, can't snipe non-character individuals in units, can they?
I thought the hits would be "distributed as per shooting", essentially random, "scattergun" approach?
Or can you say, "I will be shooting only models in base contact to the character with TOTS".
If it were a template weapon, like a stone thrower, or even a bolthrower, that's different, as you know who's being hit 😊
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Post by thegoat on May 22, 2023 13:21:58 GMT
I thought the hits would be "distributed as per shooting", essentially random, "scattergun" approach? Wouldn't that sometimes hit models in base-to-base with the other trickster's shard? |
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Post by DiscoQing on May 22, 2023 16:18:46 GMT
Hence my question 😂 What happens if a character with TOTS in a unit with a ward save is shot at by shooting? Eg.. A Bretonnian Paladin with TOTS in a unit of 12 KotR shot at by 20 Quarrellers... A HE Noble with ICI & TOTS, in a unit of 20 White Lions being shot at by a Helblaster Volley Gun |
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Post by ryryak2 on May 22, 2023 16:29:19 GMT
From what I understand, assuming your setup, your guy in the middle, plus his buddy to either side, plus the three guys directly behind the 3 of them are eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves. THe other 4 guys eligible to attack (2 on the ends, plus the guys behind them) are not eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves. Regarding, "THe other 4 guys eligible to attack (2 on the ends, plus the guys behind them) are not eligible to make the enemy reroll their saves." The two guys of the ends of the first rank are kitty-corner base-to-base with enemy models who are kitty-corner base-to-base with the character holding the other trickster's shard. Can they not choose to direct their attacks at the models that are affected? This was my first thought as well, however the conversation in the other thread, namely: What Yvain says, with the following additional remarks: 1. If the attacking model has only one attack and is in btb with a "sharded" and "unsharded" model without different characteristic profiles, he will attack the "unsharded" model.
2. Remember that both friend and foe in btb with the bearer of the Shard are affected. 3. Remember that parry saves are ward saves too. 4. Remember that the effects of the Shard are not limited to normal CC attacks. (my emphasis) this has me questioning that logic. I'm curious as to why FvonSigmaringen mentions this - my guess, is because when attacking RnF the controlling player decides which models to remove, and can hence choose models that are not affected by toTS before models that are? But then I suppose if that's the case then only the character in the center can choose to attack models affected, because the 8 other dudes on either side of him are all in contact with non-affected models. The two that are adjacent to the character are corner to corner with unaffected models. |
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Post by vulcan on May 23, 2023 20:42:48 GMT
I thought as long as there are more than 5 models in the unit, characters cannot be hit - so it always the unit. But e.g. Quarrellers & Helblasters, can't snipe non-character individuals in units, can they? I thought the hits would be "distributed as per shooting", essentially random, "scattergun" approach? Or can you say, "I will be shooting only models in base contact to the character with TOTS". If it were a template weapon, like a stone thrower, or even a bolthrower, that's different, as you know who's being hit 😊 Someone pull out their BRB. I thought for sure hits were allocated by the player being shot at, not the player doing the shooting. But yes, so long as there are at least 5 rank&file troopers the character (and champion) cannot be hit. Once the unit goes below 5 rank&file troopers, hits are still allocated by the player being shot at, but now hits CAN be allocated on the character. |
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