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Post by colonelburton on Nov 8, 2023 16:40:55 GMT
What I don't quite get is when to use what value i.e. who attacks who in effect.
Example: Demigryphs charge into melee combat, while Hurricanum (2x acolytes, 2x horses) and Great Cannon (3x crew) are attacked by a unit with pathetic INI.
- Demigryph attacks are clear, as are those of Inner Circle Knights. When the enemy fights back, I use the T of the demigryphs.
- Hurricanum: 2x acolytes and 2x horses strike (?) once each?? With a strength of what, 3 or 5? I understand 3 each, and that the 5 is for Impact hits only?
Then: Enemy unit fights back, and attacks what exactly? Hurricanum has no weapon skills. The hurricanum and warhorses have a toughness of three but the acolytes don't have toughness. I am supposing that the enemy hits against a WS of 3 (acolyte, warhorse) and wound rolls against a toughness of 5 (Hurricanum)?
- Cannon: Based on that logic, after the three crew-members have attacked with WS3 andS3, the enemy unit that swarmed them attacks them? Against a toughness of 7? If not, why does the cannon have T7??
I often read that the horses or the warmachine can be damaged individually, but seriously don't get how that should happen.
It's pretty damn confusing.
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Post by colonelburton on Nov 8, 2023 16:50:44 GMT
Sorry, bonus question.
You can move the Great Cannon and Helblaster with M4 on their wheels, right?
Since they are not missile weapons and do not have "Move or Shoot", they can march and then not shoot?
If I only move the normal 4", I should be able to shoo, right?
So I can basically also move 2" sideways with them at any point?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 8, 2023 17:07:35 GMT
The Hurricanum is a chariot. Hence, the "crew and the beasts use their own Weapon Skill, Strength, Initiative and Attacks characteristics when they attack. Each can attack any opponent that the chariot model is in base contact with, although the beasts can only fight enemies to the front. [...] The Wounds, Toughness and armour saves of the crew and the beasts are never used — hits are resolved against the chariot's Wounds, Toughness and Armour Save. It is the crew's Weapon Skill that is used for the purposes of the enemy rolling to hit, just as with cavalry" (BRB p. 86).
Regarding war machines in CC: "When it comes time to fight, the war machine makes a number of attacks equal to the number of surviving crew models, using their Weapon Skill, Strength and Initiative. Enemy models strike at the war machine normally, resolving their attacks against the crew's Weapon Skill and Toughness. The crew can then take any saves to which they are entitled" (BRB p. 110). Note also that only a maximum six enemy models can attack a war machine (monstrous infantry/cavalry/beasts each count as three models. a monster (including any rider) as five (ibidem).
Since Cannon and Hellblasters are war machines, they ipso facto have the Move or Fire special rule. "Unless specified otherwise, all weapons in this section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines) have the Move or Fire and Slow to Fire special rules" (BRB p. 109, updated).
"War machines can never charge or march" (ibidem), but you do not need to move them sideways: as a single model, it "can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move [...] without penalty" (BRB p. 27). [Edit: So you can pivot it around, move 4" and then pivot again. As it has moved, it obviously cannot fire in the Shooting phase anymore.]
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Post by colonelburton on Nov 8, 2023 17:21:14 GMT
Thanks. This "ipso facto" thing you mention is a huge problem I have with the rules, that a lot of times, things are cross-referenced on second or third level.
So, if attacks on the war machine are resolved using the T of the crew, why does the war machine have its own T?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 8, 2023 17:45:10 GMT
Against shooting and magic. "When shooting at a war machine, resolve the attack as normal, using the Toughness value of the war machine — the crew are doubtless cowering behind their war machine, using its iron and timber hide to preserve their altogether more fragile ones. The crew's armour save is still used to attempt to prevent any wounds inflicted, as it is they that the attack is attempting to slay" (BRB p. 109).
Well, repeating all the rules all the time would be impossible. Hence, the introduction of troop types. Each model has a specific troop type, and is therefore subject to all the rules of that troop type (unless, of course, specifically stated otherwise). Note also that a name does not indicate a troop type. For instance, the Hellcannon, despite its name, is not a war machine, but a monster.
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Post by kaptplanet on Nov 10, 2023 13:22:38 GMT
I'll jump on this confused band wagon.
If I have a character with no armor take the chariot as a mount what armor save does the character get?
6+ as per ridden monster or 4+ because chariot troop type
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Nov 10, 2023 13:53:50 GMT
6+ as per ridden monster.
BRB p. 105: "If a character has taken a chariot as a mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models. Characters riding on chariots cannot join other units. A chariot mount otherwise follows all the rules for ridden monsters (see below), save for the fact that a chariot does not need to take a Monster Reaction test if the character is slain."
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