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Post by colonelburton on Dec 20, 2023 15:54:14 GMT
From previous thread eefl.freeforums.net/thread/3521/wood-elves-bow-armor-saveI am going to play with Empire against Wood Elves. Main focus of enemy is archers including Waywatchers and Wild RidersPoints: tbd (3K minimum, up to 6K but I would say 4K max) I currently have a 3K list "ready" but I need some advice, because it feels like all units in this setup are garbage Core: Crossbowmen: I have 3x10 Crossbowmen determined. I think they make sense, since I noticed with their range and S4 as well as armor piercing they will pick away at both Waywatchers and Wild Riders Knightly Order or Halberdiers? Knightly's will close in faster, but the amount of damage that Wild Riders do on Charge concerns me. Better to approach slow and with masses? Or should I split 50/50? Special:Pistoliers are my main focus, I think I will go for 3x5er groups. Possibly Outriders (Multiple Shots) They close in fast, can Move and Shoot, can block enemy units temporarily and possibly Stand and Shoot when charged from enough distance. Demigryph Knights? I had the feeling they sucked the last time I took them against Wood Elves. Then again, this time, I might take one block of 6 instead of 2x3 I will take one Great Cannon for good measure Rare:I was thinking of two Steam Tanks for my main charge. The thing is, that the Steam Tank kind of sucks without an armor save (Waywatchers, Poison arrows) because all it has is the T6... you just need to suffer 3 Wounds and the tank lost half its power. 2x Hellblasters? I'm thinking Hellblasters will be decimated pretty fast (T3) so I suppose it's better to ditch them for another Steam Tank? Alternately, take Hurricanum for support in case I take Halberdiers Strategy:Focus my main melee block on the edge of the map and flank with Steam Tanks, Pistoliers and Crossbowmen. Pick at the flanks as Melee closes in, decimate the MSU and then turn into the map, charging one block at a time from the flank or behind? |
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Post by thorpyuk on Dec 20, 2023 16:14:11 GMT
Just one point- Hellblasters are T7 for the purposes of shooting.
Yoir list looks pretty good. If you know he will use anti-armour stuff, I'd drop the knights & use a naked halberdier horde- don't bother with shields. They could be supported by your xbows? Pistoliers are a decent shout to harass him. I'd take a fire wizard too- S4 attacks are pretty nice against elves
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 20, 2023 16:27:59 GMT
Yeah, I think a large 8-wide-block of Halberdiers may be a good choice. Any idea for a good magic banner I could give them, since Steel Standard is obsolete? Also, this will obviously force me to ditch my Grand Master.
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Post by thorpyuk on Dec 20, 2023 17:37:42 GMT
Yeah, I think a large 8-wide-block of Halberdiers may be a good choice. Any idea for a good magic banner I could give them, since Steel Standard is obsolete? Also, this will obviously force me to ditch my Grand Master. Why not 10-wide & get the extra supporting attacks? In terms of magic banners, you'd have to have the BSB in there for that.. but the banner of swiftness might surprise your opponent.. M5 gets you into combat much quicker. |
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 20, 2023 23:00:59 GMT
Does one extra M really make all that much difference?
At least Steel lets you repeat rolls of 1
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 21, 2023 9:30:59 GMT
Yeah, I think a large 8-wide-block of Halberdiers may be a good choice. Any idea for a good magic banner I could give them, since Steel Standard is obsolete? Also, this will obviously force me to ditch my Grand Master. Why not 10-wide & get the extra supporting attacks? Because 2cm x 8 = 16cm He uses a maximum of 5 wide units = 10cm for Waywatchers, 12.5cm for Wild Riders The other two would be useless, right? Just revisiting this idea of taking halberdiers instead of cavalry, I noticed one problem: For every arrow he would shoot (Hawkeye) at my cavalry, he can shoot two at halberdiers (Fast Shot). The only difference being to hit rolls will be -1 on Multiple Shot. However, his devastating charge, if successful, with Wild Riders will be far more lethal because of no armor save at all. This is a pretty huge dilemma for me. I don't know if Steam Tanks make sense (no armor save) and I don't know if Helblaster makes sense (no wounds). I don't know if Knights make sense (no armor save, 25 points each) or Halberdiers (only 6 points, but slow and dead twice as fast) |
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Post by thorpyuk on Dec 21, 2023 11:34:09 GMT
Why not 10-wide & get the extra supporting attacks? Because 2cm x 8 = 16cm He uses a maximum of 5 wide units = 10cm for Waywatchers, 12.5cm for Wild Riders The other two would be useless, right? You'd still get the 3rd rank attacking, even if the end models wouldn't get into combat (9 might vs wild riders) Halberdiers may die twice as fast as cavalry, but they cost less than a 3rd of the price |
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 21, 2023 12:19:05 GMT
Because 2cm x 8 = 16cm He uses a maximum of 5 wide units = 10cm for Waywatchers, 12.5cm for Wild Riders The other two would be useless, right? You'd still get the 3rd rank attacking, even if the end models wouldn't get into combat (9 might vs wild riders) Halberdiers may die twice as fast as cavalry, but they cost less than a 3rd of the price Sorry, please explain. I am missing something here. What difference does the width make in terms of third rank attacking? I thought only Pikes do that? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 21, 2023 14:20:42 GMT
@colnelburton: Units that are deployed in a horde formation (i.e. at least 10 models wide) "can make supporting attacks from the third rank" (BRB p. 49).
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Post by colonelburton on Dec 21, 2023 14:37:27 GMT
Thanks for that info. So a little OT but I suppose that means the Pikemen from Dogs of War have the advantage they don't need horde bonus to attack from the third rank?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 21, 2023 15:08:03 GMT
Some incoherent remarks: Since your playing with Grand Armies, the maximum number of Waywatchers he can have is 4. The best way to target them from turn 1 is either through Magic. For instance, the boosted spells of the Lore of Fire have usually a range of 48". You can also use augments and hexes to dent their shooting, although killing them is preferable. Outriders using Vanguard would have an effective range of 36". You can also limit their deployment somewhat by using Scouts (Huntsmen) yourself. Try to get hard cover for your units, by using terrain and other units (like the Crossbowmen). DGK are one of our best units. It is a cliche that Empire mounts are better at killing that their riders, but in this case it is true. A block of six is too unwieldy and/or loses the mounts attacks in the second row. As I observed at the time of their release: the best size must be four (in a single rank) - otherwise, GW would not have put them in boxes of three. You an protect the Halberdiers against a Wild Rider charge by positioning the Archer Detachments is such a way that he must declare/redirect charges against them first. Since fleeing Detachments cause Panic tests in 8th, make sure the BSB is nearby or in the Halberdier unit. Regarding the Steam Tank: I think people may be confusing several editions. It is true that in 7th edition the Steam Tank became a useless pile of junk after it was down to 5 wounds or less. That is not the case anymore, because now you get to roll on a Mishap table, and as long as you you do not generate more than 4 Steam Points, the Mishap results are not too bad,in particular as they currently seem to allow armour saves. In fact, there is no reason ever to generate more than 4 Steam Points, unless you go for a SVBIED. I should point out here, though, that the Dangerous Overpressure result unfortunately does not allow AS, after all. As pointed out in another thread: where the English version is not stringent enough in its wording regarding Wounds before and after saves, the French version is and has here perds un nombre de PV equivalent (loses the equivalent number of Life Points). |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 21, 2023 15:09:54 GMT
Thanks for that info. So a little OT but I suppose that means the Pikemen from Dogs of War have the advantage they don't need horde bonus to attack from the third rank? The DoW are not official 8th edition units. |
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Post by Luigino on Dec 21, 2023 15:23:41 GMT
Honestly, colonelburton , I think you're worrying wayyyy to much about one single unit to the point you're forgetting everything else. Don't stress about it too much. Having say that the list seems ok. Maybe take a few low level Light wizards to guarantee 1 or 2 Pha’s Protections if you're really that terrified of their shooting. |
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Post by thorpyuk on Dec 21, 2023 16:01:40 GMT
Thanks for that info. So a little OT but I suppose that means the Pikemen from Dogs of War have the advantage they don't need horde bonus to attack from the third rank? I think you might be confusing prior editions. But what Fvon said- if you're 10-wide you get a 3rd rank of supporting attacks (or 4 if you have spearmen that havent charged) |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 21, 2023 17:06:37 GMT
Honestly, colonelburton , I think you're worrying wayyyy to much about one single unit to the way you're forgetting everything else. Don't stress about it too much. Quite. However, psychology is part of the game and often difficult to overcome. The effect of our Hellblaster is testament to that. |
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