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Post by mahbruck on Jul 15, 2017 1:48:53 GMT
Good batrep. Good Q&A from Ryryak. The last trick is pretty neat, and I'm pretty sure more people using that than I can be aware of.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 15, 2017 6:21:50 GMT
Eternal guard blue box. What happens when it ranks are removed and finally totally gone? Which way are the eternal guard facing? disappearing ranks can be tricky, but essentially you want to reform the units fighting so that the maximum number of models continue to fight. If a reform (this can just mean a sideways scoot) cannot bring those flanking models into contact, then they're no longer considered to be in the combat. In your example the two red units on the right and assuming the eternal guard are pulling from the bottom of the blue block: Because they're in base contact with a unit in their flank once the eternal guard have taken enough casualties that they're no longer in combat with the larger red block then the large red block fighting becomes its own combat with the green block at the bottom. (assuming that the green block means a unit is attacking them in THEIR flank) We probebly did alot some wrong here Treekins (green left), eternal (blue), aincent (green right) all face up/forward. Goblins (red left) face downwards. Trolls top right, spider bottom right face left. so if eternal loose ranks will spider move up and move a trolls out of combat? Or can he choose what unit to remain in combat as low ranks of eternal support less right flank units? And when only one rank is left/ few first row units do spider get out of combat removing ability to thunderstomp and leaving two trolls to do normal stomps to last rank of eternal? This fight:
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 15, 2017 9:10:08 GMT
Congrats on the win. Treehuggers rule!
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Post by knoffles on Jul 15, 2017 20:36:14 GMT
Good batrep. Good Q&A from Ryryak. The last trick is pretty neat, and I'm pretty sure more people using that than I can be aware of. I see it a lot with chariots. The extra couple of inches can make a difference for something that can't march. Still feels a bit cheesy. Not as bad as conga lines though. I refuse to use those on principle.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 16, 2017 6:59:21 GMT
Good batrep. Good Q&A from Ryryak. The last trick is pretty neat, and I'm pretty sure more people using that than I can be aware of. I see it a lot with chariots. The extra couple of inches can make a difference for something that can't march. Still feels a bit cheesy. Not as bad as conga lines though. I refuse to use those on principle. Whats up with the congalines? Heard sonething that skaven rats uses that tactics. Dont really get what it is and why its good?
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Post by frozenfood on Jul 16, 2017 7:44:53 GMT
Skaven rat darts are two rats wide. So two rats, two rats and a rat with packmaster. It's very narrow so can wiggle in between two big units and due to special rules all of them can attack. If you put them 6 wide they are much harder to maneuver. It's very skaveny and I love it.
You could make conga line of 6 goblin bosses, so 1 boss, after that 1, .... This way your opponent has to direct all of his attacks against the first boss. He is killed and the bosses succeed in their LD test since there is a general nearby? This way a unit with killy characters is stopped for the entire game and your opponent will ragequit and go for several beers.
Any other nasty congaline tricks?
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Post by knoffles on Jul 16, 2017 12:26:04 GMT
Similar to the goblin boss one. 5 Dwarf slayers with a number upgraded to giant slayers (champions). Deployed 1 wide and 5 deep. As they are unbreakable you have to wipe them all out. There is some further cheesiness around being able to upgrade all of them to champions, possibly so you can continuously challenge or maybe something to do with wound allocation and champions so you can only kill one Dwarf and not put extra wounds on the others in the unit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 16:52:10 GMT
Similar to the goblin boss one. 5 Dwarf slayers with a number upgraded to giant slayers (champions). Deployed 1 wide and 5 deep. As they are unbreakable you have to wipe them all out. There is some further cheesiness around being able to upgrade all of them to champions, possibly so you can continuously challenge or maybe something to do with wound allocation and champions so you can only kill one Dwarf and not put extra wounds on the others in the unit. This is the one that I see people complain about all the time. Because slayers are unbreakable you can wiggle it so that only one slayer can be killed at a time (unless you've got a character with a different I value in the unit, provided he can kill one and the unit he's in can kill another you can kill TWO per turn) then because they're unbreakable you have to spend several turns killing one/two slayers a turn. Most people don't like playing against that. Personally I'd never do it as I want to keep my friends.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 17:17:11 GMT
Which way are the eternal guard facing? disappearing ranks can be tricky, but essentially you want to reform the units fighting so that the maximum number of models continue to fight. If a reform (this can just mean a sideways scoot) cannot bring those flanking models into contact, then they're no longer considered to be in the combat. In your example the two red units on the right and assuming the eternal guard are pulling from the bottom of the blue block: Because they're in base contact with a unit in their flank once the eternal guard have taken enough casualties that they're no longer in combat with the larger red block then the large red block fighting becomes its own combat with the green block at the bottom. (assuming that the green block means a unit is attacking them in THEIR flank) We probebly did alot some wrong here Treekins (green left), eternal (blue), aincent (green right) all face up/forward. Goblins (red left) face downwards. Trolls top right, spider bottom right face left. so if eternal loose ranks will spider move up and move a trolls out of combat? Or can he choose what unit to remain in combat as low ranks of eternal support less right flank units? And when only one rank is left/ few first row units do spider get out of combat removing ability to thunderstomp and leaving two trolls to do normal stomps to last rank of eternal? This fight: Going off your first photo: It looks like the trolls would remain in contact until there was one model left in the eternal guard, as once the trolls make contact with the goblins in front of them they would stop, and if they're no longer contacting an enemy model then they're out of combat. The spider looks like it would be in base contact with the eternal guard all throughout the end of the combat as it was corner to corner with the front rank of the unit. However; if the spider was NOT corner to corner with the front of the unit but instead the trolls slightly overlapped that front base then the spider would be out of combat as soon as that second rank was removed and there was only one rank left. Also it looks like only one troll was in base contact with the eternal guard. Only models base to base can [thunder]stomp so by my reckoning he should have only been stomping with one troll per turn. At the end of combat he could be reforming (free if you win, otherwise it's a modified LD test with the same modifier for the break test they just passed) to allow for small changes to keep models engaged or to make it so that something will end up unengaged in future turns. Just remember when reforming that: the same number of models on both sides of the combat must still be fighting. I.E. if one troll, one spider, and two eternal guard are fighting then after reforms at least one troll, one spider, and two eternal guard must still be fighting.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 18, 2017 11:58:59 GMT
We probebly did alot some wrong here Treekins (green left), eternal (blue), aincent (green right) all face up/forward. Goblins (red left) face downwards. Trolls top right, spider bottom right face left. so if eternal loose ranks will spider move up and move a trolls out of combat? Or can he choose what unit to remain in combat as low ranks of eternal support less right flank units? And when only one rank is left/ few first row units do spider get out of combat removing ability to thunderstomp and leaving two trolls to do normal stomps to last rank of eternal? This fight: Going off your first photo: It looks like the trolls would remain in contact until there was one model left in the eternal guard, as once the trolls make contact with the goblins in front of them they would stop, and if they're no longer contacting an enemy model then they're out of combat. The spider looks like it would be in base contact with the eternal guard all throughout the end of the combat as it was corner to corner with the front rank of the unit. However; if the spider was NOT corner to corner with the front of the unit but instead the trolls slightly overlapped that front base then the spider would be out of combat as soon as that second rank was removed and there was only one rank left. Also it looks like only one troll was in base contact with the eternal guard. Only models base to base can [thunder]stomp so by my reckoning he should have only been stomping with one troll per turn. At the end of combat he could be reforming (free if you win, otherwise it's a modified LD test with the same modifier for the break test they just passed) to allow for small changes to keep models engaged or to make it so that something will end up unengaged in future turns. Just remember when reforming that: the same number of models on both sides of the combat must still be fighting. I.E. if one troll, one spider, and two eternal guard are fighting then after reforms at least one troll, one spider, and two eternal guard must still be fighting. Im gonna try make some squared units images as I really need to learn. Appeiciate your help alot!
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 22, 2017 10:41:28 GMT
We probebly did alot some wrong here Treekins (green left), eternal (blue), aincent (green right) all face up/forward. Goblins (red left) face downwards. Trolls top right, spider bottom right face left. so if eternal loose ranks will spider move up and move a trolls out of combat? Or can he choose what unit to remain in combat as low ranks of eternal support less right flank units? And when only one rank is left/ few first row units do spider get out of combat removing ability to thunderstomp and leaving two trolls to do normal stomps to last rank of eternal? This fight: So it quickly became to something like this (a turn alter the treeman ancient joined in). And if i understand correctly the Tree Kins to the left could have jump in behind the tree kin to the right after first round of combat after a win? What happens with the Spider to the right(black box) when Eternal guard looses ranks? Will they push the Trolls up so both units still fight but less Trolls? If not and the rank in front of is gone before thunderstomp. Will it still thunderstomp? Really appreciate your help, trying to grasp the rules
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 18:49:40 GMT
Because three trolls were initially in combat three trolls must ALWAYS remain in contact (as long as a shrinking flank allows anyway). You could inch them up a little bit so that top one is corner to corner and still be fine.
Bottom line though once those eternal guard have taken enough wounds so that only 4 ranks are left (3 ranks if you go corner to corner with the trolls as that will allow the spider to be corner to corner with that fourth rank) then the spider will no longer be in combat.
page 61 talks a little bit about this but it's in no ways clear. It mentions that a unit that finds itself outside of combat is nudged by as small an amount as possible to remain in contact. I would say that they cannot be nudged as the trolls occupy the entirety of the eternal guards flank at this point. From here on out the spider is free to move/reform as normal during your turn.
If anyone out there has a different interpretation then please speak up as I'd like to make sure about this myself.
You mentioned that the spider was shortly charged by a treeman. When the eternal guard have eventually taken enough wounds that the spider is no longer in combat with them then I would treat the spider/treeman combat as its own combat from there on out.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 24, 2017 19:13:16 GMT
Because three trolls were initially in combat three trolls must ALWAYS remain in contact (as long as a shrinking flank allows anyway). You could inch them up a little bit so that top one is corner to corner and still be fine. Bottom line though once those eternal guard have taken enough wounds so that only 4 ranks are left (3 ranks if you go corner to corner with the trolls as that will allow the spider to be corner to corner with that fourth rank) then the spider will no longer be in combat. page 61 talks a little bit about this but it's in no ways clear. It mentions that a unit that finds itself outside of combat is nudged by as small an amount as possible to remain in contact. I would say that they cannot be nudged as the trolls occupy the entirety of the eternal guards flank at this point. From here on out the spider is free to move/reform as normal during your turn. If anyone out there has a different interpretation then please speak up as I'd like to make sure about this myself. You mentioned that the spider was shortly charged by a treeman. When the eternal guard have eventually taken enough wounds that the spider is no longer in combat with them then I would treat the spider/treeman combat as its own combat from there on out. Thank you, I moved the Rules question to a separate thread, couple of minutes ago Sorry were suppose to link here but missed it. I really appreciate your help. Not that easy for a beginner like me. Link to separate thread. Sorry for spamming. I will go on vacation for 10 days now so think you will see less of me eefl.freeforums.net/thread/599/rules-question-happens
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Post by mottdon on Jul 24, 2017 19:41:27 GMT
Well, have a happy vacation!
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Post by mahbruck on Jul 24, 2017 21:50:06 GMT
Sorry for spamming. I will go on vacation for 10 days now so think you will see less of me Nah, this forum desperately needs some spammers as the Oldhammers are famously a taciturn bunch (We used to have another great spammer but he's just gone to the sunset with his girl AFTER we gave him great chick advices )
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