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Post by mottdon on Aug 22, 2017 16:19:40 GMT
So DE generals (and really anyone who has access to Harpies), when do you use Harpies in your lists? With access to units like Dark Riders, how useful do you find Harpies to be? And if you do include them in your lists, how many?
I ask this because I currently have 5 and I was wondering if I might need to add to their number.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 16:46:53 GMT
Take them with the scout upgrade and use them to guarantee a vanguard move for your dark riders.
They're cheaper (I think, I don't have point costs for DE memorized) than Dark riders and they're faster so they have that going for them.
But honestly Dark Riders are some of the best if not THE best chaff in the game. They retain their fast cav status even with a 4+ armor save and are very fast and are nasty in the right hands.
They're great in Beastmen lists because of their immediate threat they bring to warmachines with scout and/or flight moves. Low LD though so they can be easily panicked.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Aug 22, 2017 17:23:30 GMT
They're great in Beastmen lists because of their immediate threat they bring to warmachines with scout and/or flight moves. I tend to agree. Seems like a unit of 5 almost always has a home in a 1500 - 2500 pt list of Beastmen. |
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Post by mottdon on Aug 22, 2017 18:15:40 GMT
Sweet. So should I look to get a second unit of Harpies or just stick with the 5 that I already have and leave the majority of Vanguarding/Fast Calvary shenanigans up to the Dark Riders?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 18:40:23 GMT
Nothing wrong with two units of harpies. If you're running two units of dark riders it allows you to try and guarantee vanguard moves for both units of riders
I'd keep them minimum sized though.
Shades also help fulfill this role too, I don't know what army composition you're running though.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 22, 2017 18:46:18 GMT
No specific composition right now. I'm just trying to flesh out my DE army a bit and I wanted to spark some conversation about Harpies. I don't see them used all that often and almost always as chaff. I was wondering if anyone has had more success in using them for a different role? I so, what was it and how strong did they need to be in order to be truly effective?
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Aug 22, 2017 19:04:03 GMT
Just one man's thoughts... I felt like the Dark Elves I faced were almost always one of the more unfair armies in 8th. Not the best mind you. Just unfair army composition. In 2000ish points they could fit a few small units to distract, typically Dark Riders. Two small units of those and maybe 10 Crossbowmen, there's your core points requirement. Plus, harpies to redirect anything fast and scary; plus 2 units of Doomfire Warlocks; plus like 3 high level characters/casters; maybe a Hydra for lulz. Depending on the personal flavor, I almost always remember facing a few bolt throwers and oftentimes Witch Elves. Always a very nimbly bimbly army. Hits hard but no good in any sort of grind. They could play the "dance" game very well. Avoid any type of horde, pick on your opponent's medium sized stuff. Always win a medium victory.  Full respect, the Dark Elf layers I played were quite good [skilled] and knew the rules forwards/backwards.
They had both strategy and tactica going. |
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Post by knoffles on Aug 22, 2017 20:33:24 GMT
One of my opponents normally runs his in a 3-2 formation and will also use them for character assassination for things like scroll caddies in the first turn.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 20:46:04 GMT
I will say this too:
Harpies are disposable.
Dark Riders are not.
There are situations where you're absolutely going to need/want to sacrifice dark riders, but for the most part you're going to want to be fleeing from charges, shooting with those xbows, and generally being an annoyance and pain in the butt.
Harpies you typically sacrifice to redirect a unit if there are no more warmachines to hunt or your dark riders/characters are able to deal with them.
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Post by mottdon on Aug 22, 2017 21:06:48 GMT
Sounds good fellas!
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Post by vulcan on Aug 22, 2017 22:03:27 GMT
Even with the other chaff options in the DE book, harpies have one advantage over all others (except, possibly, a naked Master on a peggy).
Flight.
This means you can get them exactly where you need them, exactly WHEN you need them, with no worries about units in between where they are and where you need them.
The 3x2 soft target assassin is nice, when it works. The trick to using it is twofold. First, keeping it alive vs. shooting while achieving LOS to the target. Second, picking a suitably soft target to kill. Even a 4+ ward save makes killing the target difficult, as harpies are not exactly hard-hitting critters.
Likewise, war machine hunting. It's not uncommon for them to fail to actually kill the war machine. However, much of the time just tying up the war machine so it can't shoot is well worth the sacrifice.
Where harpies really shine is the last-ditch interceptor. You need to hold off your enemy's big nasty unit one more turn, and your other chaff can't find a ground path to block the charge. But the harpies can fly in and set up whatever angle you need as part of their move.
Much of the time I'll use other units at minimum size- warlocks, dark riders, shades, or even 'tirestrip' units of witches as my chaff, and keep a unit of harpies in reserve just behind my main combat blocks. That way it can't be shot up casually, but remains available and close-at-hand for that critical moment.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 23, 2017 5:56:45 GMT
I will say this too: Harpies are disposable. Dark Riders are not. There are situations where you're absolutely going to need/want to sacrifice dark riders, but for the most part you're going to want to be fleeing from charges, shooting with those xbows, and generally being an annoyance and pain in the butt. Harpies you typically sacrifice to redirect a unit if there are no more warmachines to hunt or your dark riders/characters are able to deal with them. Spoken like a true Druchi general! What models do you guys use for harpies? I have decent sized Dark Elf and Beastmen armies but have never run harpies in an actual game (ive made lists with them) simply because I had no suitable painted models. I saw a picture once of a guy who had used Tyranid small wings on Ungor to make harpies which looked really cool but I don't have the bits. Always loathed the official GW harpies models. |
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Post by Horace on Aug 23, 2017 8:57:09 GMT
Just one man's thoughts... I felt like the Dark Elves I faced were almost always one of the more unfair armies in 8th. Not the best mind you. Just unfair army composition. In 2000ish points they could fit a few small units to distract, typically Dark Riders. Two small units of those and maybe 10 Crossbowmen, there's your core points requirement. Plus, harpies to redirect anything fast and scary; plus 2 units of Doomfire Warlocks; plus like 3 high level characters/casters; maybe a Hydra for lulz. Depending on the personal flavor, I almost always remember facing a few bolt throwers and oftentimes Witch Elves. Always a very nimbly bimbly army. Hits hard but no good in any sort of grind. They could play the "dance" game very well. Avoid any type of horde, pick on your opponent's medium sized stuff. Always win a medium victory. Full respect, the Dark Elf layers I played were quite good [skilled] and knew the rules forwards/backwards.
They had both strategy and tactica going. If there's one thing I am not a fan of, it is cookie-cutter armies. That does look like the typical internet build. I don't why people don't feel the need to spice things up a bit and try something different |
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Post by hiportes on Aug 23, 2017 12:47:07 GMT
If there's one thing I am not a fan of, it is cookie-cutter armies. That does look like the typical internet build. I don't why people don't feel the need to spice things up a bit and try something different I cannot agree with this more. The game never gets stale when you switch things up and play a variety -- plus if you branch out and find something you like better, there is usually much more a feeling of satisfaction! Back to harpies, I have had a few instances where the fly ability has won me games: charging an already-fleeing enemy unit and having the movement (and roll) to destroy the unit, using them to charge a fleeing unit (there is the theme) to direct them in a certain direction, and using that huge movement range to charge block a dangerous unit (or frenzy bait) when it may not have looked like a unit could get in the way. Plus they are more expendable than Dark Riders and Shades. I had not thought of using them as wizard assassins, I might need to try that... |
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Post by mottdon on Aug 23, 2017 13:22:37 GMT
Just one man's thoughts... I felt like the Dark Elves I faced were almost always one of the more unfair armies in 8th. Not the best mind you. Just unfair army composition. In 2000ish points they could fit a few small units to distract, typically Dark Riders. Two small units of those and maybe 10 Crossbowmen, there's your core points requirement. Plus, harpies to redirect anything fast and scary; plus 2 units of Doomfire Warlocks; plus like 3 high level characters/casters; maybe a Hydra for lulz. Depending on the personal flavor, I almost always remember facing a few bolt throwers and oftentimes Witch Elves. Always a very nimbly bimbly army. Hits hard but no good in any sort of grind. They could play the "dance" game very well. Avoid any type of horde, pick on your opponent's medium sized stuff. Always win a medium victory. Full respect, the Dark Elf layers I played were quite good [skilled] and knew the rules forwards/backwards.
They had both strategy and tactica going. If there's one thing I am not a fan of, it is cookie-cutter armies. That does look like the typical internet build. I don't why people don't feel the need to spice things up a bit and try something different I do the exact same thing! I hate those net lists that everyone defaults to. Sure, they can be good, but it doesn't mean that there can't be other, more fun lists to play! I just used a Beastmaster as my DE general in my last game and included a lot of Monsters as well. It was a lot of fun! I strongly encourage players to mix things up! At the same time, I totally understand when someone wants to play their list over and over to tweak and see if they can make it work. I've never heard of Harpies being used as character assassins either. Sounds cool and makes sense too. I'll probably wind up using them as escorts for a Dreadlord or Supreme Sorceress on Pegasus. They'll be able to keep pace with their escort without hindering their movement, provide a protective screen and assist in any combat encounters that may arise. I'll try keeping most of my chaffing up to my Dark Riders. Should I need to go over 3 units of DR, then I suppose Harpies can also play in that role as well. |
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