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Post by Horace on Sept 15, 2017 15:09:47 GMT
I have some time for a battle!! This is the list I am thinking of taking. So many different things I still want to try in battles (all goblins & Anvil of Doom for 2) but I am opting Vampires again purely because I have just finished my Black Coach and want to use it  I was thinking of trying a bit of a leadership bomb Vampire: Vampire Lord 505 points (ouch) Heavy Armour, Barded Nightmare, Level 3 Wizard, Enchanted Shield, Ironcurse Icon, Sword of Anti Heroes, Talisman of Preservation Aura of Dark Majesty, Beguile, Fear Incarnate, Quickblood, Summon Creatures of the Night. Necromancer 145 points Level 2 Wizard, Master of the Dead, Book of Arkhan 40 Crypt Ghouls 400 points 5 Dire Wolves 40 points 30 Skeleton Warriors 205 points Full Command, Hand Weapon & Shield, Screaming Banner 30 Zombies 100 points Full Command 2 Bat Swarms 70 points 9 Black Knights 264 points Barding, Lances, Full Command 20 Grave Guard 250 points Full Command, Hand Weapon & Shield 5 Hexwraiths 150 points Black Coach 195 points 3 Cairn Wraiths 175 points Banshee I think I have perhaps left my infantry a little light, with the hope of being able to spam the numbers up a bit. Hopefully the Hexwraiths, Wolves/Bats & Wraiths provide a little target saturation to get my big hitters safely over the board. The Vampire as always is a bit of a beast with a 1+ 4++, ASF, -1 Ld within 6", Re-rolling fear tests required & a -3 modified Ld test or re-roll hits on him. Possibly worth trading out ASF (Quickblood) for Supernatural horror (Terror causing) for more leadership shenanigans? Otherwise I will have to try and combo charge using some of my other terror causers. Screaming Banner will hopefully keep my skeletons alive a little longer, requiring 3 dice fear tests, especially if I can keep them near-ish my Knights I admit this list does have a bit of a whiff of something that looks great on paper and does nothing on the board but what can you do?! |
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Post by mottdon on Sept 15, 2017 16:44:19 GMT
Not a bad list. I might drop the Zombies to a unit of 20 as well as their command and use them as a bunker for my Necromancer, and pick up another unit of 2 Dire Wolves. I think they'll serve you better than 10 Zombies.
Also, and this is me personally, I'd rather have a Mortis Engine than 20 Grave Guard. You already have 2 hard-hitting units in the Crypt Ghouls and Black Knights, so I think that the utility of including the Mortis Engine's buffs would work much better for you here. It also puts the pressure on your opponent to get through your tarpits and kill it. It becomes a top priority for your opponent to kill quickly, thus ignoring the rest of your forces (keeping your Knights and Ghouls alive until they get stuck in combat where you want them). With all the chaff and tarpits that you can clog things up with, you should be able to keep it alive until round 3 or 4 when you charge it forward on a suicide run, blowing up in the middle of your opponent's lines. Not to mention that the Terror it causes could work really well with your Vampire's Ld tricks. It also has a ton of attacks as well as counting as a chariot, so it's no slouch offensively.
I you don't already have one, I'd seriously suggest investing in one. IMHO, it's one of the best units that VC have.
Oh - and I would definitely drop Quickblood for Supernatural Horror. If you are going to play the Ld game, go all the way. Besides, you already have an incredible defense on this guy with a 1+, 4++ save. You calculate in his already high WS7, and I don't think you have to worry about getting wounded. Hopefully the Ld tricks will also mean that you don't have to do much damage yourself.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Sept 15, 2017 17:22:22 GMT
I've never gotten good return for a small unit of wraiths. They are very expensive for something that can be blasted with a minor magic missile. If you really want to take them I'd go for 1 banshee and 1 wraith, both of which can be safely hidden in the front rank of a unit-as well as boosting their combat effectiveness. I would also take more grave guard...35+ for me. Agreed on dropping the zombies to 20. If you start getting off spells with the bunkered necro they will swell to 50 quickly. He isn't going to waste shots on zombies so you have a massive bus to throw at him late in the game (just remember to get your necro to safety by then). Last thing, I love a wight king BSB in almost every VC build.
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Post by mottdon on Sept 15, 2017 18:10:24 GMT
What is the appeal to taking a Wright King BSB? I've never quite understood, yet nearly every VC player I've ever faced has taken one. And almost always paired with a Vampire Lord. Is he just a glorified bodyguard? And if that's his role, why not just take a Vampire as your BSB for 20 points more? The Vampire's stats are vastly superior and it also gives you another potential caster. If you're looking to get KB off, then just stick them in a unit of Grave Guard. Maybe I'm missing something obvious...
I like the advice on including Carin Wraiths and Banchees. Those are models that can take you by surprise and are difficult to plan a defense for.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 15, 2017 18:41:32 GMT
The BSB has a supporting role - for this he needs to survive. Therfore, the WK is a better BSB: he costs less, has 1T and 1W more than a Vampire, and cannot be the General anyway. However, given that the BSB cannot have a higher Ld than the General, you can only take a Wight King as BSB with a Vampire Lord or a Strigoi Ghoul King as General.
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Post by mottdon on Sept 15, 2017 19:15:15 GMT
Okay, I suppose I can see that +1 T&W helping him survive, but I've never really seen a Wright King in a match-up where his opponent couldn't beat him. In my experience, if the opponent he's facing is a real threat, then the Vampire Lord will usually fight him and he'll never be in trouble from that character, or the Vampire Lord can't even beat him and there's nothing he can really do anyway. Personally, I'd rather have that extra bit of offensive punch and options in my magic phase, rather than someone who's slightly harder to kill. If I'm really worried about it, then I can always give him a 4++ ward save. Besides, I'd think that most opponents would be much more worried and focused on killing the Vampire Lord.
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Post by mottdon on Sept 15, 2017 19:20:20 GMT
Something else to consider is that a Wright King is the more defensive build than the Vampire, and thus, would be better suited to a force that is relying on magic and the long grind game. I'd think that a force that is built around trying to get your opponents to fail Ld tests, would be considered a more offensive list since it would depend on engaging your opponent instead of sitting back and castling.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 15, 2017 22:18:28 GMT
Your set-up presupposes that the Vampire Lord and the Whight King are always next to each other in the same unit. That is not necessarily the case. A good general will try to keep his BSB out of harm's way - for instance, by removing him from a unit that will be attacked by a vastly superior force next turn. And in any case, the question is not so much whether an opponent can beat him, but how long it takes.
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Post by Horace on Sept 16, 2017 8:43:58 GMT
Thanks for the input, I will swap in Supernatural Horror I would consider a Mortis Engine if I had one, I may pick one up at some point I quite like the model. I am just trying to chew through at least some of my paint queue before buying more. @therealricksalamone Likewise I would have more Grave Guard if I had them. It is the main glaring hole in my collection for Vampires. I am also not fully convinced by rare choice Wraiths but they are Terror causers so I thought I would give them another chance to wow me I do like Wight Kings, I am yet to be fully convinced that it is worth paying for the BSB.. 1 less crumble is not really that important although slightly more worth it in Black Knights. Wight Kings are 20 points cheaper than the basic Vampire which is also an added bonus. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 16, 2017 9:12:39 GMT
The WK is even 24 points cheaper, as he is already equipped with HA. But it is true that, compared with other armies, the value of the BSB is more limited. IMO, the BSB really comes into play, once the General is dead [and you have no Wizards left with the LoV]. Basically, the VC BSB is a life (undeath?) insurance policy: while it may also pay a small dividend each turn, the real benefit is only available in case of the unforeseen and (usually) unwanted death of your General. That is also why it is a good idea to have them in separate units - as mottdon pointed out: what can kill a VC General, can kill the BSB too.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Sept 16, 2017 11:22:38 GMT
The points made about lower cost, better toughness and wounds...those are great. I would never take a vampire hero as BSB (I really don't even want to take vampire heroes) because I feel they are too easy to kill. Against rank and file infantry they are a major liability. Then I think about ward saves and do I really want to invest lots of points in items to keep a guy with 2 wounds alive.
While a BSB is more important in,say, an Empire or Goblin force, I like that, in a grind it out army, I am going to take a few less casualties.
My build for BSB is often great weapon and dragon helm or the 5++ talisman. I put him on the corner of a horde of skeleton spears so I usually get to choose if I'm moving him into the combat. My vampire lord with quickblood resides on the opposite corner of the horde.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 16, 2017 20:18:27 GMT
I would rather give him a shield for a 3+ AS instead of the GW. Not that I would ever be playing something unholy and vile as Vampire Counts.
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Post by mottdon on Sept 17, 2017 12:14:28 GMT
Thanks for the input, guys! One of my main opponents is a VC player and has just come back to Fantasy in the past year or so. I think he's been compiling his lists mostly from netlists. I wanted to advise him correctly when the inevitable question comes up. Cheers!
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