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Post by Horace on Sept 18, 2017 8:43:59 GMT
We had an odd situation arise in our battle (I will post pics shortly) whereby a charging unit was trying to charge a unit already in combat in the flank. The unit could complete the charge on a diagonal line but could then not close the door due to another combat. Reading the rulebook, if the unit can not close the door usually you would move the other unit instead. However would you do this in multiple combats. The book also states if no amount of "finagling" can achieve a closed door the charge fails.
So the way I see it there are 2 options:
1. The multiple combat is rotated slightly to allow the charge to complete. This is the finagling required.
2. The charge fails because charged unit can not be rotated (already in combat)
How would you play it?
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Post by frozenfood on Sept 18, 2017 9:35:39 GMT
We had the same problem in our last game. 1 feels wrong but a failed charge doesn't feel right either. Luckily his wolf could put his hind paws in the forest so we did not have to make a ruling.
Summon Rules Inquisitor!
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Post by mottdon on Sept 18, 2017 12:53:16 GMT
Personally, I think that it would be an incomplete charge (can't be made) if there was no way for the charging unit to fit in. The unit already engaged in battle doesn't have to move to compensate since they are already occupied.
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Post by vulcan on Sept 18, 2017 21:17:58 GMT
Because in real combats units would always stop short if they had to break formation to make contact with the enemy.
Sigh.
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Post by Naitsabes on Sept 19, 2017 1:36:22 GMT
this type of situations really benefit from discussion before declaring the charge. Then if you decide it can't be completed, just don't declare it.
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Post by Naitsabes on Sept 19, 2017 1:39:46 GMT
And I am pretty sure it states somewhere that already engaged units don't close the door. We'll just have to wait for europe to wake up so we get the page number.
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Post by Horace on Sept 19, 2017 12:25:29 GMT
this type of situations really benefit from discussion before declaring the charge. Then if you decide it can't be completed, just don't declare it. This is kind of what happened, it turned into a bit of an after you sir situation. When we decided the rules were a bit ambiguous I just said do it and we can tilt the units so he could get his charge in. He didn't want to do it if it wasn't allowed though (even though I didn't mind) and charged something else instead. It turned out to be pretty crucial  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 21, 2017 21:49:26 GMT
As far as I know,the BRB does not state that engaged units cannot close the door. However, Warhammer is a permissive system: if it does not say you can, you cannot. The rules say an enemy unit can close the door - they do not say, you are allowed to move other units in thr process. Therefore, you cannot.
I guess, this is perhaps best covered by the side text on BRB p. 20:
Unexpected Problems
Sometimes you'll declare a charge thinking that it can be completed but then discover that proximity of other units, terrain or just whimsical and unkind geometry (by which I mean 'it won't fit') prevents the charge from being completed. In such circumstances, I find it best to treat the charge as having failed, using the rules given earlier. Alternatively, you and your opponent might agree that the sensible thing to do is declare that the charge never actually happened.
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Post by Horace on Sept 21, 2017 22:39:37 GMT
It does say you can fudge it kind of though iirc. Does this not fall into that bracket?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 21, 2017 22:48:38 GMT
When the BRB says "If no amount of finagling can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails." the finagling is referring to what has been said before: - BRB p. 20: Sometimes a charging unit can move into contact with its target, but cannot close the door because something else lies in the way, normally another unit or a piece of terrain. Where this happens, the charging player should attempt to complete the charge in such a manner as to avoid the obstruction. This can normally be achieved by increasing or decreasing the amount the charging unit wheels as it moves, or changing how the charging unit closes the door. In some cases the enemy unit might have to close the door with the chargers instead (see diagram), as they would do in reality.
This does not mention or imply moving other units. |
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Post by Horace on Sept 22, 2017 8:28:25 GMT
/devil's advocate Finagling basically means cheat though doesn't it So the rules can perhaps be bent to try and accommodate the charge? Not that I disagree with you I am just genuinely curious. verb (used with object), finagled, finagling. 1. to trick, swindle, or cheat (a person) (often followed by out of): He finagled the backers out of a fortune. 2. to get or achieve (something) by guile, trickery, or manipulation: to finagle an assignment to the Membership Committee. verb (used without object), finagled, finagling. 3. to practice deception or fraud; scheme. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 22, 2017 9:18:33 GMT
The paragraph on p. 22 specifies how to finagle (i.e. break the actual rule on p. 20) in order to complete the charge. The side text on p. 20 suggests to treat it either as a failed charge or to ignore the charge. Do not forget, rotating the multiple combat will have its consequences on other units as well. But if you and your opponent agree, feel free to roatate the multiple combat to complete the charge.
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