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Post by strutsagget on Sept 23, 2017 21:28:54 GMT
Isn’t skaven ab still in 7ed? Might explain a lot of the confusion in that book 
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Post by KevinC on Sept 23, 2017 22:55:55 GMT
Isn’t skaven ab still in 7ed? Might explain a lot of the confusion in that book ---------It was one of the last army books written during 7th edition, though clearly with 8th ed in mind (just look at the spell lores). Regardless, it is the official Skaven army list for WFB 8th edition. If the rule was designed to mean that the general must have the highest LD value even over characters who cannot be the general, then clearly this would be in the 8-page FAQ. It's not. That means no Skaven player, no GW employee, and no Warhammer player in general thought to ask to clarify this question. Why? Because it didn't occur to the average player that any of this could be so.
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Post by vulcan on Sept 24, 2017 1:10:41 GMT
But as I have said already numerous times: if you and your opponent agree to play a house rule, feel free to do so - but that is what it will be: a house rule. Is it really just a house rule if people all over the world play it that way?
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Post by avatarofbugman on Sept 24, 2017 2:55:43 GMT
I've read over the passages in question multiple times, and I have to say that the two passages are exclusive of each other. The passage about the BSB clearly defies him from being considered as general. Therefore he does not count as being the highest leadership for this purpose. This is based on just reading the rules.
Think of it this way. In a sport, a disqualified player is not eligible to participate. If you wanted your best player to take a shot, but he is disqualified, you just can't. You have to choose from what is eligible.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 24, 2017 7:19:52 GMT
Isn’t skaven ab still in 7ed? Might explain a lot of the confusion in that book As pointed out before, the 7th edition removed the ambiguity of the 6th: 7th & 8th editions have the same rules in this respect. The quirk in the Skaven AB is not because it is 7th edition, but because it is the Skaven AB.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 24, 2017 7:27:26 GMT
------I understand the argument. I suppose you are correct by RAW. I'm saying it's not intuitive because I believe what you are saying would never occur to the average player that the wording means your general MUST have a higher Leadership value than the BSB. In general, the Warhammer rules describe exemptions all the time from the main body of rules. So I would argue that it's more intuitive to interpret if a character cannot be the army general, than the army general does not need to have a higher (or equal) Leadership value than the character who cannot be the general.. As you say: "In general, the Warhammer rules describe exemptions all the time from the main body of rules.' Exemptions are specified, and unless specified otherwise, normal rules apply. There would be a lot less rules discussions, if this simple and self-evident principle would be adhered to. In this case, no exemption is specified, therefore the normal rule applies. ------I Also, in order to prove that your reading of the rule is not the intent, merely look at the Skaven army list. A Vermin Lord is a character with Leadership 8 and Deathmaster Snitch is also Leadership 8. Both of their rules state they may not be the army general. Under your reading of the rules, that means, the only legal way to include a Vermin Lord or Deathmaster Snitch in a Skaven army is to also include Queek Headtaker who is also Leadership 8 and may be the general. All other Skaven characters are LD 7 or lower. This is proof enough that the rule for choosing a general clearly means to exempt characters that cannot be the general in the first place. I myself brought up the Skaven quirk on the very first page of this thread, and already answered your question on the second: Not really. All armies are faced with the same "problem" - if you want to see it as a problem. The only AB which can be said to face odd restrictions in this respect is the Skaven AB. Well, the only AB which can be said to be abnormally restricted is the Skaven AB. But do we have to blame the BRB or the Skaven Army Book for that? Where the other AB need on average 2-3 pages of Errata & FAQ, the Skaven AB needs 9, suggesting to me that the fault lies with the Skaven AB. The main point is: in all AB, you can use all available characters in legal lists. And I were so morally depraved to play Skaven, I would take Queek Headtaker in any case, as he is arguably the most cost efficient Lord there is.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 24, 2017 7:36:55 GMT
I've read over the passages in question multiple times, and I have to say that the two passages are exclusive of each other. The passage about the BSB clearly defies him from being considered as general. Therefore he does not count as being the highest leadership for this purpose. This is based on just reading the rules. Think of it this way. In a sport, a disqualified player is not eligible to participate. If you wanted your best player to take a shot, but he is disqualified, you just can't. You have to choose from what is eligible. That is an assumption that is not based on anything in the rules. To repeat once more: People are putting things into a rule which are not there. The rules just say that the BSB cannot be the general - they do not say to ignore his Ld for this purpose. If you do not have a General as the character in your army with the highest Leadership, you have an illegal list. It is a matter of simple but stringent mathematical equality. Everyone can agree that if A=B and C=/=A, then C=/=B. The General is the character in your army with the highest Leadership. The BSB cannot be the General. Therefore, the BSB cannot be the character in your army with the highest Leadership.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 24, 2017 7:49:02 GMT
But as I have said already numerous times: if you and your opponent agree to play a house rule, feel free to do so - but that is what it will be: a house rule. Is it really just a house rule if people all over the world play it that way? Well, that assumption is not quite correct, because otherwise this discussion would not pop up every once and a while at least since 2001. Most lists are legal, and thus do not even give rise to the discussion. That also means that most players are actually following the rules (consciously or not). The main offenders are currently the Dwarfs, and, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, that is because, in 2014, their 8th edition AB increased the Thane Ld to 10, bringing them in line with the other ABs. That made the combo Runesmith-General/Thane-BSB they had been playing at least since 2001 invalid.
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Post by frozenfood on Sept 24, 2017 7:53:46 GMT
A moment of silence for our fallen thanebsb brother...
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 24, 2017 8:00:06 GMT
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 24, 2017 8:27:26 GMT
For me I found it strange people think a better leader would follow a lesser one regarding fluff. Is it impossible to run those chars together in skaven? Is Queek bad?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 24, 2017 11:49:29 GMT
A moment of silence for our fallen thanebsb brother... Come to think of it: isn't it rather the Runesmith General that has fallen?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 24, 2017 12:03:42 GMT
For me I found it strange people think a better leader would follow a lesser one regarding fluff. Is it impossible to run those chars together in skaven? Is Queek bad? It only concerns those two special characters, the Vermin Lord and Deathmaster Snitch. Both have Ld 8, but cannot be the General. The only character with Ld 8 and who can be the General is that other special character, Queek Headtaker. And for 215 points, he is a cost-effective Lord in general, but against Dwarfs, he is superb. Admittedly, this is a quirk, but the Skaven Book is full of quirks. In all probability, an 8th edition Skaven Army Book would have addressed this, but, of course, now we'll never know. That said, all Skaven characters can be taken in a legal list. And that is the litmus test for me.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Sept 24, 2017 12:56:49 GMT
FvonSigmaringenMy example assumed nothing. I read the two rules and merely have an exterior example. This is often done in science to show how something works. Think of it as a model. The positioning of the BSB rule makes it an addendum to the general rule. Also, your arguments against interpretations are odd in that you make language immutable. This is most certainly not the case. Not to be crass, but the English word "fag" means something different in America than it does in England in the everyday vernacular. Also, when a word is used in a certain way definitions are often added to. This means that rules and laws are often open to a small amount of reasonable interpretation, and often are.
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Post by Horace on Sept 24, 2017 13:24:47 GMT
- Selecting the General is NOT done at the end of the list: it is part of building your list (BRB p. 134 ff.). Indeed, it is listed as the first step of building your list. The ambiguity of the 6th edition was removed more than 10 years ago. It was open for interpretation before, but not since the 7th edition. I don't think this is necessarily the case. That list is not a sequence things should be done in as far as I am concerned. Are you suggesting you build a list in the order on that page? It would not make any sense and I do not think it says you must do so.
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