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Post by imrillion on Oct 29, 2017 23:50:54 GMT
Quick Question men
An elector with a VHS on a dragon with a magic weapon, is this the best hope I have when playing Empire Vs end times Malekith? any other empire Generals had any luck? |
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Post by mottdon on Oct 30, 2017 19:16:56 GMT
Woah. Heavy question. First off, I don't know about End Times rules, so those may differ from my normal 8th edition knowledge, but regarding 8th rules, Empire only currently has 2 special characters who can take a dragon as a mount. Karl Franz on an Imperial Dragon, and Elspeth Von Draken on a Carmine Dragon. Both of which are nasty character in their own respects, but I don't think that they are capable of going toe to toe with Malekith since he's pretty much a combination of the two (Karl - close combat, Elspeth - magic). Now, if End Times rules allow a General or Elector Count to take a Dragon as a mount, then, depending on what you equip him with, you might stand a chance. Malekith's rerolling ability will probably give him the edge most of the time, though. If you were interested in a one-on-one throw-down, then I'd opt for End Times Ascended Karl Franz.
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Post by imrillion on Oct 30, 2017 23:30:12 GMT
🤔 I'll have a gander, I think the vhs may still
be an option with an elector on a 2 headed gryphon since Mal and his lizard are a single model with one stat line, and a magic weapon negates Mal's armour save...
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 31, 2017 5:34:13 GMT
I think you are on to something there with pointing out the single stat line. The VHS will rock. Couple things:
- the VHS only switches certain stats, not items/special rules, i.e. your elector will need to bring his own magic sword to get around the 2+ ward save. Malekith still has a 3+ armor but using his strength 6 largely takes care of that.
- bring a dragonhelm and chuckle as your 10pt magic item gives you a 2+ ward save against mighty Malekith's flaming attacks (and chuckle even more as the dragon's attacks are wrapped in and hence also flaming). of course, if you do roll that one, he has a chance to kill you since he still does D3 wounds
- the VHS doesn't switch weapon skill..so maybe bring the sword that makes you WS10 to really show who is boss?
As mottdon pointed out, Malekith is still a bad ass wizard (lv4 or lv5 depending on which version) so that is potentially troublesome. but, you have a good shot at taking him out with a character that is about a third of the points. Let us know how it goes.
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Post by mottdon on Oct 31, 2017 13:24:13 GMT
You guys are confusing me with this talk of "Elector Counts". Those guys are special characters and have set items. Are you referring to a General of the Empire? Those guys can actually take two-headed Gryphons, VHS, Dragonhelm would be good (Especially against a Dragon), and normally I'd say the White Cloak of Ulric and Great Weapon, but given Malekith gets a 2++ vs non-magical attacks, you probably still need a magical weapon of some sort. The Sword of Swift Slaying will allow you to strike before Malekith (canceling out his ASF and using his higher Initiative value with the VHS) and that would also allow you to take a Dawnstone to make your 1+ armor save potentially troublesome. The Fencer's Blades would make Malekith hit you on 4+ instead of 3+, but that would knock out the Dawnstone (you could still take a Luckstone). Keep in mind that Malekith has a weapon that can potentially destroy your magic items if he scores a hit on you, so that might be the better route.
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Post by Naitsabes on Oct 31, 2017 16:43:45 GMT
yep, sorry. The General of the Empire. Wasn't that character called 'Elector Count' in one of the older books?
I don't think the End Times Malekiths get to destroy Magic Items (unless I missed that rule last night).
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Post by imrillion on Oct 31, 2017 20:32:40 GMT
Yep, sorry general of the empire.. now.. hear me out, what if I took a wizard on a two headed gryph, with VHS instead?! 🤔
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Post by mottdon on Oct 31, 2017 21:01:59 GMT
That's typically who you'd want to tote the VHS, but he can't carry any defensive items, so no 1+ armor save. You'd have to rely completely on the Talisman of Preservation. After that and the VHS, you'd only have 20 points to get a weapon. The General is better, but not so dramatically better that it'll cause problems.
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Post by knoffles on Nov 1, 2017 8:48:35 GMT
Am I the only one who for ages could work out what vhs was and therefore the point of this thread? The only thing I could think of was video cassettes (probably showing my age). Anyway I've worked it out now (vans thingy spectrum). Pointless interjection finished. Carry on.
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Post by imrillion on Nov 1, 2017 9:41:20 GMT
Am I the only one who for ages could work out what vhs was and therefore the point of this thread? The only thing I could think of was video cassettes (probably showing my age). Anyway I've worked it out now (vans thingy spectrum). Pointless interjection finished. Carry on. 🤣 That's gold! But yes, the speculum... completely useless against a dwarf lord🤣 |
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Post by Horace on Nov 1, 2017 11:18:04 GMT
I still don't see it being particularly successful. The general will be able to put some wounds on him, but only 3 maximum per turn before saves. He has 10. Malekith will still have his 2++ save against the griffon. He will be hitting back first on 3s to hit (with rerolls), but 6s to wound (with rerolls) causing d3+1 wounds each. My money is on Malekith, he only needs to sneak 1 through and that is that.
Seems an expensive gamble at 400+ points
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 2, 2017 15:44:27 GMT
The vhs swaps S, T, attacks and initiative. you also give the Griffon Rider a cheap magic sword, plate armor, shield and dragonhelm.
Now Malekith (and including his dragon as per End Times combined stats) has a whopping three flaming attacks with strength 4 (granted he still multi-wounds). but, three attacks, wounding on 6 and followed by 1+armor and 2+ward is as frustrating as it gets in warhammer. Big Mal should probably try and go against the griffon, he might sneak in a wound there against toughness 5 and no armor.
On the return, the griffon rider now attacks with the outrageous Malekith stats and Mal doesn't have a ward save.
That griffon rider should be in the low 300s point wise. Not super-familiar with Dark Elf lore but, if I understand that prophecy right the griffon rider must be a male dark elf wizard in disguise.
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Post by Horace on Nov 2, 2017 16:35:30 GMT
Oh of course he gets the 10 attacks. Stupid joint profiles  I guess he is just totally reliant on not getting wounded first then. I was on about the eternity king whose attacks are not flaming, you are talking the cheaper phoenix king version (so no ward or you would have to find some space in your magic allowance). To wound he would be hitting first with ASF and rerolls from eternal hatred so you would expect AT LEAST 2 hits. He would be 6s to wound on these hits but again with rerolls (Eternity king + murderous prowess). 2-3 die, rerolled means some saves will probably HAVE to be made. I would definitely attack the rider. If he dies the Griffon is useless and if he doesn't you're dead so why not. Plus Mal is ethereal to the Griffon's attacks.. The General would come in around 400 (107 + 100 magic allowance + 175 Griffon +any Griffon upgrades) I guess you would load him out with VHS, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone & Sword of Swift Slaying for optimal killing. He would hit at the same time with a re-rollable 1+ AS |
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Post by Naitsabes on Nov 3, 2017 3:03:28 GMT
right, too many Malekith version floating about. If you were to face the non-flaming version the Griffon Rider should rock the Dawnstone giving him a re-rollable 1+ armor save. since Malekith is strength 4 it's the same difference as having 1+ armor followed by +2 ward against flaming.
so each wound Mal actually gets through (with three attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 6s, each with re-roll) has a 1/36 chance of him actually getting the glorious multi-wound.
I don't think you need to max out the griffon rider at all. Certainly don't need griffon upgrades. In fact, I suggest taking a 5 point magic sword to add insult to injury. How about the Tormentor blade? This way Malekith gets to swing first without having an effect (unless the dreaded double ones come up), then the griffon rider wacks him, making Malekith stupid right before he dies (or extra juicy, since Mal has ten wounds it might take 2-3 turns of suffering stupidity before he gets to leave the table)...oh what a travesty!
EDIT: might have to re-think the 1+ re-rollable armor. plate armor+shield+mounted is 'only' 2+. so...spend some more on a ward-save?
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Post by Horace on Nov 3, 2017 7:51:29 GMT
right, too many Malekith version floating about. If you were to face the non-flaming version the Griffon Rider should rock the Dawnstone giving him a re-rollable 1+ armor save. since Malekith is strength 4 it's the same difference as having 1+ armor followed by +2 ward against flaming. so each wound Mal actually gets through (with three attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 6s, each with re-roll) has a 1/36 chance of him actually getting the glorious multi-wound. I don't think you need to max out the griffon rider at all. Certainly don't need griffon upgrades. In fact, I suggest taking a 5 point magic sword to add insult to injury. How about the Tormentor blade? This way Malekith gets to swing first without having an effect (unless the dreaded double ones come up), then the griffon rider wacks him, making Malekith stupid right before he dies (or extra juicy, since Mal has ten wounds it might take 2-3 turns of suffering stupidity before he gets to leave the table)...oh what a travesty! EDIT: might have to re-think the 1+ re-rollable armor. plate armor+shield+mounted is 'only' 2+. so...spend some more on a ward-save? Enchanted shield would take him to 1+. I thought SoSS to go ASF so you always get to swing at least one set of 10 attacks at him. But tbh any crappy sword would work. The +1 to hit sword would probably be a good choice too |
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