|
Post by And again... on Apr 10, 2018 9:53:16 GMT
Nagash book? Where Tilea and Estalia are destroyed in two lines because Skaven? Where silly overcomplicated plans develop like in the worst soap oper only to surprise readers?Where characters like Zacharias die in silly ways only because they're not in GW catalogue? ET books are bland and silly where characters die on the spot moslty beheaded ( no one hurt or mutilated, surving on dying in bed?) and over the top deus ex machina events. Tonb Kings shouldn't appear on aos, aos is too stupid for a faction based on ancient Egypt. I mean it's so silly that free people of free guilds of free cities are dressed like Empire people of 2522 I.C.
|
|
|
Post by Naitsabes on Apr 10, 2018 17:13:13 GMT
I really don't think the End Times book are worse than 'standard' GW writing, which I accept isn't great a lot of the times. After Nagash, the other one that is quite nice is Glottkin. Lots of details on Nurgle's failed attempt to speed up the end of the Empire. I have the feeling that one was originally planned more like the Tamurkhan book. Yes, some of it is cursory because they have to destroy a whole world with 30 years of characters and nations and factions in a limited number of pages. But, they put some effort into tying up the loose ends (some more clumsily than others). I much prefer that to a page in white dwarf saying 'The world ended. Here is what Sigmar is up to now...and behold, he now has Sigmarines'. What the ET books offer is a LOT of material to base scenarios and campaigns on.
Basically, I don't understand the hate. It's not like the Old World pre-ET has been taken away. It's still there to play games in. ET just adds more opportunities. All that only works if you accept the basic premise that for shareholder value reason the options were to do ET or not and AOS was coming either way. I picture the old guard at GW begging the CEO to let them make these ET books before starting AOS. Them shedding tears as they find proper ways for beloved characters (and fine, also Tilea) to go out. Long hours over Scotch figuring out how to burn up the Old World.
Bottom line, yes, it would have been great to continue in the old world with the old rules (or some gentle update thereof) but, business is business and business must grow. The only part that bugs me is that most of the local gaming community has come apart and I can't just go down to the game store on a Wednesday night for a pick-up game (of any kind).
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Apr 10, 2018 18:15:16 GMT
I think that the real "hate" is coming from the fact that they completely ended the old world. It could've been SO EASY to simply state that they will no longer be supporting 8th edition, but instead, making models for AoS, which could be used for 8th edition games, if so desired. They are getting ready to re-release some of the old "classic" models (a few at a time), so we know that it had nothing to do with models "not selling". And they were creating simple "free" rules anyway, so why not include a single page with the models for use in 8th edition? It'd take all of a day or two to write and play test for them. Not a heavy investment and they keep everyone happy.
The End Times books never needed to happen. I think that the very people who wanted to see books like the ET, were the very ones who weren't really invested in 8th edition in the first place. They just wanted to read an ending to a good book, and then move on to the next game to come around. They'll also be the ones continually pushing to kill AoS and move on to something else, again, and again, and again, like parasites.
Under the current CEO, I don't think ET would've ever happened. He seems to be making MUCH better decisions for GW. I also think that he would've made better decisions with how it was handled if he was forced to push ET. I don't think that he would've led the community to believe that this was just another scenario book set that was only out to advance the timeline. Communication would've been MUCH better about what it was and what was going to happen. Every single person I knew, when Nagash came out, ALL said that they weren't ending the game. That they'd NEVER destroy 30+ years of game development. That doesn't change the fact that they did, and GW is still proud enough not to rescind that terrible decision. So since the ET books exist and are a story available for our Old World, in my opinion, that's just another scenario that is available for me to play. I don't have to "accept" that anyone died or any of the story, but they did provide access to some complex ideas for engagements that have much potential.
|
|
|
Post by Naitsabes on Apr 10, 2018 20:16:58 GMT
I really can't follow. How is it a drawback that there is a final chapter to the Old World? If the options are "ET then move over to AOS" or "move over to AOS" I don't understand why you would choose the latter and forego extra-content. They could still make 8th edition rules for their Sigmarines in the Old World. Why would ET stop them from doing that? Call it 'warhammer classsic in the world that was'. I don't think that is as little effort as you make it out to be. And GW clearly doesn't think it is worth the effort.
Conversely, as far as I recall it, they did make AOS rules for all 8th edition models (clapping like a horse to get a bonus etc.). So, you could always play AOS in the Old World if that is your thing. It's just that most people want 'new-and-shiny' followed by more 'new-and-shiny' and if the new and shiny is an igneous delta (whatever the hell that really is) the grassy fields of Averland are no more...except for a few old souls like us here.
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Apr 12, 2018 11:44:45 GMT
I'm simply saying that "ET then move over to AoS" and "move over to AoS" weren't the ONLY two options that they had at their disposal. They could've gone with "Keep the Old World and create AoS". There's nothing wrong with having two fantasy games. If anything, AoS would've been the perfect gateway for new gamers eventually getting into 8th edition. Get new gamers started playing with AoS, then as they collect (with incentive to BUY MORE MODELS) more and more, they will eventually be able to move over to the large scale games of 8th edition. There's literally no downside to that. Everyone's happy. Simply make these new models that they are spending money making anyway, with a rule set for both games (included with each box as they are now), and you have your edition updates.
We all know these arguments by heart now and know that it REALLY boiled down to IP issues for GW. "Profitability" wasn't the main issue. If it was, they never would've made AoS and instead, would've abandoned Fantasy altogether. And as they've demonstrated with AoS, if you pour enough marketing support into a product and push it in a variety of ways, it WILL make money. They simply CHOSE not to do that with 8th edition because they couldn't sue people for name rights. That's why they "killed" our game. So any "hatred" towards the ET books, spawn from these reasons. It's not the actual books themselves (well written or not), nor is it an issue of whether or not they provided us with an ending to the Old World, it's their motivations (or lack thereof) for ending our game.
|
|
|
Post by Naitsabes on Apr 12, 2018 17:22:32 GMT
seems to me IP and profitability are very closely intertwined. They made their business decision to the best of their abilities (and people like us are hurting from it). Who knows if there was another economically viable way forward that would have kept 8th going. I don't think making 8th edition rules for AOS models would have been that cheap. That takes up as much designer mindspace as writing any other army book. I guess they thought there is more bang for your buck when the designer churns out yet another AOS sub-faction. And again, they could still do that ET or not. Anyway, we are both just armchair CEOs here.
Bottom line, Sigmarines and these weird dwarf-like creatures in their lead balloons in the Old World? I shudder at the thought. I prefer the clean cut. But, I respect everyone is different. So love what you love, hate what you hate. It's all good. Whatever you do though...paint your miniatures. And mottdon, you got that part covered more than any of us!
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Apr 12, 2018 19:08:02 GMT
Whatever you do though...paint your miniatures. And mottdon, you got that part covered more than any of us! Wait until you see what I post tomorrow....
|
|
|
Post by gjnoronh on Apr 12, 2018 21:09:27 GMT
We can argue about profitability but I think AoS leading to 40K sales is more the model they were hoping for. Round bases and similar rules sets (with 40K's new rules mirroring most of AoS) WFB 8th ed sales were severely lagging so I don't think they would have framed AoS as a gateway for 8th.
There's a reason KoW/Warmachine/AoS all have simpler rules sets then 8th ed WFB - the rules density was part of the detraction to new gamers.
IP for AoS doesn't reflect the Tolkien I grew up loving but for a generation who grew up on World of Warcraft, Japanese Manga, Final Fantasy etc I think it's much closer to the Fantasy touchstones for todays teens then the Tolkienesque Old World.
It absolutely amazes me how many modern gamers haven't read Tolkien or Starship Troopers.
|
|
|
Post by And again... on Apr 14, 2018 22:58:57 GMT
8th edition sales were lagging....uhmmm guess why? GW's fault! Defining the World of Warhammer as Tolkienesque is superficial. The first edition of Warhammer was dedicated to Moorcock, most of Warhammer armies and even Warhammer world are based on our history even mesoamerican lizardmen, the tomb kings, ogre kingdoms... Elves, Dwarfs,Orcs and Halflings were parodies of Tolkien tropes the traits of those races were pushed to extreme and there was a lot of dark irony in them.
|
|