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Post by redknight on Jun 19, 2018 10:15:17 GMT
Hi guys,
So lately I have been playing a lot against Nurgle Deamons and I get smashed systematically. They are very powerful, and I don't see a lot of weaknesses to exploit. For me, they look a little bit too strong.
First thing is, they are all Nurgle, so I get minus 1 to hit any unit in the army. It means that most of my vampire counts units hits them on 5s.
On 5s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In most of the combats, I can't even touch them. It's that simple. To hit everybody on 5s is already a hell of a malus, but it doesn't stop here. The whole army has regeneration saves and/or 5+ wards. Oh, and by the way, they are all immune to psychology (so bye bye fear).
Then they have units like beasts of nurgle. d6+1 random attacks, 4 wounds, Regen, Slime trail, Poison..... They charged my blood knights (with kitted out vampire lord inside) and I did not do A SINGLE WOUND to them.
Then my opponent adds EPIDEMIUS on top of all that to spice things up (just like if the army wasn't already strong enough). Epidemius gives extra bonuses to the whole army, growing with the total number of wounds the army has caused.
As I play vampire counts, it is not hard to kill skeletons or zombies, and my opponent usually maxes out the bonuses after 2 or 3 turns.
Then his WHOLE ARMY gets extra strenght, toughness, improved wards, they basically become INVINCIBLE at this point.
I tried different lists and the last few games were so one-sided that I am really out of options. Any advice would be welcome.
Thanks !
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Post by mottdon on Jun 19, 2018 12:21:37 GMT
Yeah. I hate WoC and DoC for exactly those reasons. They were GW's favorite army so they made them uber powerful. I'd even say broken. People like to point out that they're expensive and don't have shooting, but LOTS of armies are expensive (Dwarfs, any Elf race, etc.) and other armies (VC included) don't have shooting either (not even a Hellcannon), but none of those are close to being as strong. So yeah. They're broken IMO.
In fact, my local gaming group has written off those two armies, because you have to ban SO MUCH from their armies JUST to have a fair game. It's not fun.
Sorry, as far as what you can do, the only thing I can suggest is to spam the heck out of low-level necromancers and always opt for Invocate as well as take several Mortis Engines with the Blasphemous Tome upgrade. Then take so many skeletons and Zombies, that they'll never cut through all of them. In your magic phases, throw 1-2 dice at Invocate with all of your Necros. The Mortis Engines will help with this. Theoretically, he won't have enough dice to stop all of the spells. Also take the Black Parapet to maximize your power pool. If you have a Terrorgheist or two, then while they are tied up with all those Skeletons and Zombies that keep coming back, Scream the heck outta the weakest units. Get those Victory Points. The rest, just hold up for the entire game. It's boring as hell, but if they're going to bring a broken army, you gotta do what you gotta do.
I wouldn't try taking units like Crypt Ghouls, Vargheists, or other hammers, since they're not going to be effective at killing them. They'll just go down easily and give him VPs. You could try taking a Blender Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, if you want that character who can punch a hole in something, but that's just up to your personal preference. I'd probably also leave the Grave Guard at home, since they will get killed by the dozens and are very expensive and could hand him the game with those VPs. A couple of units of Hexwraiths might be a good choice though. If he can't touch them, then he can't get those VPs. Just stay away from characters, or creatures with magical attacks. Make sure you know which is which before you start your game.
Hope that helps a bit.
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Post by redknight on Jun 19, 2018 14:37:12 GMT
Thanks for the insight.
I knew that the only way to deal with this kind of army would be to spam Mortis engines and terrorgheist, this kind of stuff. But this is not how I want to play, at least until I get forced too.
They are definetly broken, and it makes me feel better that I am not the only one one who thinks they are !
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Post by gjnoronh on Jun 19, 2018 16:11:50 GMT
Lore of Death to snipe characters - nurgle doesn't close particularly fast and your vampire characters have high leadership.
You don't kill nurgle daemons in hand to hand by direct casualties. You hope to static combat resolution them down. Bricks of skeletons are relatively cheaper (and replenishable) get in the flanks and the front with stuff simultaneously. Use Direwolves to redirect other units from the combat. With no panic checks you can redirect for as long as you have dogs/bats etc to keep getting in their way.
Nurgle is a slower moving list in general. Your Blood knights should only be charging things that you want them to fight. The unkillable block of beasts of nurgle is not what you want your hammer to hit (hammer against anvil does not hurt the anvil and will eventually break the hammer.) Maybe in the flank/rear of a brick of plaguebearers to put some active combat resolution wounds into the mix.
Here's the thing - chaos in general is really good at hand to hand. You aren't going to beat them trying to outmuscle them in combat with most WFB units. But there is a reason they weren't at the GT level generally highly rated armies in 8th ed. They didn't have the tools to deal with alternate situations then someone willing to punch face to face.
Sit at max range for your damage dealing spells have some dogs ready to tie him up as he gets close, and move some fast moving stuff along the flanks to try and get around the back. Set up for a turn 3-4 combo charge with lots of your points against less of his while tying up the rest from a prolonged combat (which is likely to happen with these two armies)
Edit also should mention Purple sun. While a miscast has a small chance of being fatal for you anything else is a lot of casualties and power dice generation in your favor.
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Post by sedge on Jun 19, 2018 18:33:56 GMT
Load up on spells/kit that can make up for the -1 to hit - Banner of the Barrows if you're bringing your large Grave Guard block, and Danse Macabre on your primary caster. Bring a Corpse Cart too, as you won't have to worry about it being shot (its usual fate) and giving how low Nurgle's initiative is, getting Always Strikes First on your troops will allow anything except Zombies to re-roll failed hits against most Nurgle units.
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Post by vintageof79 on Jun 19, 2018 20:00:43 GMT
The ring with Vanhels would be useful in this instance, as you would potentially be able to cast the spell twice - assuming the first is dispelled.
If you want to stay away from cheese (more than I can say for your opponent) I do think ghoul hordes are effective against plague bearers, providing they have support. Okay they hit on 5's, but they are poisoned attacks, you would get 40, and with the previously mentioned corpse cart (and T4) they should match them point for point. In fact a corpse cart with a lv1 necromancer equipped with book of Arkhan or perhaps Staff of Damnation for 10 additional attacks and invocation would be a pretty good combo in this case. Crypt horrors are similar for the same reason. Including mortis engines as well would mean that they too have 4+ regen.
Failing that, skeletons, full command, 2 vamps perhaps with Curse of the revenant and Skabscrath, one with Aura of Dark majesty 5 wide, with 4 Banshees in 2nd rank together with 2 terrorgheists or 2 Engines and throw the cheese back in his face 😝.
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Post by redknight on Jun 20, 2018 4:21:51 GMT
Thank you for all the advice !
I tried lore of death in the last game and Purple Sun did help.
I will try to go more along those lines with mounted vampire casters that will outrun him, snipe, and go away.
It might be a good tactic !
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Post by gjnoronh on Jun 20, 2018 11:06:34 GMT
Well remember he has some damage causing spells himself so solo mages can be a risk.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jun 21, 2018 4:22:49 GMT
Beasts of Nurgle are ridiculous for the points, I hate those things. You must have been unlucky to not score a single wound with your vampire lord though.
You have the units to be able to control the engagements, as some have said Nurgle is very hard to beat in combat so try and ensure the engagements are as lopsided in your favour as can be.
Hexwraiths I believe won't work as all Daemon attacks are magical.
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Post by Horace on Jun 21, 2018 9:29:11 GMT
The benefit of Hexwraiths against Nurgle is that they are flaming, and if he is pimping his regen save it could be useful in that regard. The same goes for the Road of Flaming Death. I would also be tempted to give Skabscrath a go, it not only grants Flaming Attacks and other bonuses but also gives you Death Shriek which could work nicely on low Ld Daemons. Banshees & Terrorgheists could also be beneficial although as others have mentioned, Banshees lose some application through Ethereal being useless though. I would be tempted a bit by the Black Coach too, can easily access Flaming Attacks. I think you need to go for a balance between tarpits and a few hammer units (Blood Knights, Varghulfs, GG/Black Knights) who would generate your combat res as gjnoronh suggested. Lore of Shadow is also a good option since it penalises low Initiative and Nurgle I sucks. It would probably be my choice for my main caster, practically every spell would be pretty beneficial to you with Pit of Shades being particularly epic You should also use a Zombie Dragon just because. That way noone ever hits anyone in combat
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Post by gjnoronh on Jun 21, 2018 12:05:26 GMT
To be clear I think I'm more of a Lore of death to snipe epidemius, avoid combat for a long time and if you do get into combat rely on static combat resolution rather then active combat resolution kills.
Tooled up nurgle is the anvil - don't beat your head or squishy army against it. Out maneuver it and snipe the points you can get for the win.
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Post by vintageof79 on Jun 21, 2018 12:22:56 GMT
Outmanoeuvre and snipe with 2 terrorgeists, Ghoul King mounted on terrorgeist with Skabscrath, Curse of revenant and dark majesty. 4 shrieks, no combat 😋.
Perhap snipe is the wrong word here...
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 16:40:12 GMT
Lore of Death to snipe characters - nurgle doesn't close particularly fast and your vampire characters have high leadership. You don't kill nurgle daemons in hand to hand by direct casualties. You hope to static combat resolution them down. Bricks of skeletons are relatively cheaper (and replenishable) get in the flanks and the front with stuff simultaneously. Use Direwolves to redirect other units from the combat. With no panic checks you can redirect for as long as you have dogs/bats etc to keep getting in their way. Nurgle is a slower moving list in general. Your Blood knights should only be charging things that you want them to fight. The unkillable block of beasts of nurgle is not what you want your hammer to hit (hammer against anvil does not hurt the anvil and will eventually break the hammer.) Maybe in the flank/rear of a brick of plaguebearers to put some active combat resolution wounds into the mix. Here's the thing - chaos in general is really good at hand to hand. You aren't going to beat them trying to outmuscle them in combat with most WFB units. But there is a reason they weren't at the GT level generally highly rated armies in 8th ed. They didn't have the tools to deal with alternate situations then someone willing to punch face to face. Sit at max range for your damage dealing spells have some dogs ready to tie him up as he gets close, and move some fast moving stuff along the flanks to try and get around the back. Set up for a turn 3-4 combo charge with lots of your points against less of his while tying up the rest from a prolonged combat (which is likely to happen with these two armies) Edit also should mention Purple sun. While a miscast has a small chance of being fatal for you anything else is a lot of casualties and power dice generation in your favor. The whole "army x is broken" cry really annoys me, especially as seeing that WoC and DoC are my favorite armies. You've hit the nail on the head. If you're trying to tackle the enemy by playing their strengths instead of your own then of course you're going to lose. Also take advantage of the fact that Chaos generally has no shooting and bring things that you normally wouldn't because of cannons/shooting. Vampires on Zombie Dragons. Terrorgheists. Experiment with the Undead Legions and try out some screaming skull catapults or bring some of those Morghasts to bolster your forces. Bring hard to kill models like Crypt horrors so that his count can't get too high. Also that count goes away the second Epidemius dies. KILL EPIDEMIUS. He's the perfect target for your blood knights. Scream his unit down to a managable size and then hit him hard with those knights! Whining about an army being "broken" and then comping/banning them from play is NOT a good way to go about fixing the issue. Also have you sat down and had a friendly chat with your opponent? Try talking to him about your concerns and see if he'll mix things up!
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Post by strutsagget on Jun 21, 2018 17:27:01 GMT
But there is sooooo much that's broken and utterly fun WM are broken, at the moment I play 4 every game but still lose as I can't finish the units off
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Post by sedge on Jun 21, 2018 18:42:26 GMT
Experiment with the Undead Legions and try out some screaming skull catapults or bring some of those Morghasts to bolster your forces. Bring hard to kill models like Crypt horrors so that his count can't get too high. If Redknight is going to go down the Undead Legions route, there's some really nasty stuff that can be done to combat Nurgle. That block of Grave Guard for example... put a Tomb Prince in for "My Will Be Done" (i.e. WS6 across the unit), give the standard the Banner of Eternal Flame to deal with regeneration, pop in a Wight King BSB with Banner of the Barrows (+1 to hit), and add a Necrotect for seasoning (Hatred, so re-roll misses in the first round of combat). With that, even against Mark of Nurgle, you'll be hitting on 3+, re-rolling misses in that first round (all you need), and the great weapons will handle whatever toughness Nurgle can throw at you. Load the characters up with nasties like The Other Trickster's Shard to force re-rolls of successful ward saves, and Epidemius and friends can kiss their chubby diseased backsides goodbye.
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