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Post by Horace on Sept 8, 2016 14:40:46 GMT
GW prices are fully insane, I would still have some interest in their stuff thought if they hadn't abandoned warhammer as I know it
I will personally have nothing to do with GW games unless something resembling 8th or a new 9th (similar in spirit and set in the old world) appears. Or Necromunda
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Post by gjnoronh on Sept 8, 2016 20:35:34 GMT
Not disagreeing with most of the recent poster. I think more importantly price points have to be at a place that teenage boys can afford to get hooked using pocket money. My overarching point however is prices aren't enough to explain fantasy's decline. 40K is more and is doing much better. Excluding the BIG miniatures per miniature prices are lower then warmachine which has been doing better for a decade then WFB.
Lack of IP protection IMO is a chunk of it.
Bottom line the old rules system and world wasn't selling toys -hard for them to justify continuing in the same vein.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Sept 9, 2016 2:01:59 GMT
Gary, I respectfully disagree about the IP issue. As you point out fantasy has been lagging for a fair while, before there were any real challengers making minis that fit the same lines.
I say price is the issue, and not because of price per piece, as many others have equal or greater costs. It is the "per play" cost. WFB needs more money to play a game that looks right on the battlefield than the others you compare it too. Warmachine and Hordes look "right" with 20ish models on the table, WFB would look odd.
IP is a weak reason to lay on the downfall. Are the Ironjawz really anything other than Orcs? Are Sylvaneth anything besides an elf type? Why is Kings of War gaining traction in many areas around the world? Some of it is WFB backladh, but you can't ignore that they make you pay less for a similarly sized armies. You argue vastly inferior sculpting there, but I think that is a preference speaking, as Mantic's newer minis have really upped the level of detail they offer. Stylistically many of their armies don't appeal to me, but the same is true of many of GW's products. There is a reason I don't have a lot of Beastmen in my collection. Lots of people love them, I don't.
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Post by gjnoronh on Sept 9, 2016 16:59:04 GMT
I hear you and agree overall cost to acquire and play is an issue see my second sentence above. However again 40K does well despite requiring lots of expensive toys. For that matter to a lesser extent Warmachine has moved to bigger and bigger forces since their launch. GW's IP problem predates the current issue in that many historical manufacturer willing to work in 28mm could have products people could use. I think the chapterhouse copyright case and products like Mantic made GW much more conscious how easy it was to make stuff that is 'generically fantasy' that fits. I'm not saying I do or don't agree with AoS's miniature design ethic but I do think much of it has moved further from generic fantasy into something more specialized. Kings of War the game didn't gain any significant traction internationally until AoS. Prior to that their sales were purely from folks trying to field WFB armies on the cheap. I don't fault the player or the manufacturer for that but it did siphon off sales from WFB. Mantic's stuff is getting better but I haven't seen anything that compares to the level of detail from similar GW products. For example here's their hot next release www.beastsofwar.com/kings-of-war/mantic-preview-naiads-wyrmriders/I very much like the concept behind the mini I don't think (from this picture at least) the level of detail compares to equivalent GW large base cavalry.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Sept 9, 2016 18:03:46 GMT
So much to comment on here. Gary, you are spot on that there's just a dropoff in sculptor skill when you go to Mantic's line. I like much of their VC stuff and I also like their Chaos dwarves and to some extent, their greenskins. That's it though.
As I've said before, GW missed an opportunity when they failed to publish/support a warbands/skirmish level game that existed in the olde world. Players could have used their existing collections and continued to play epic battles or smaller engagements.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on GWs LotR projects, but didn't the slow fade for WFB start when they took on LotR, another fantasy genre battles game? Mind you, I only played LotR once and I really had fun (avatarofbugman led me through it). I'm not implying that LotR took players away from WFB, because I'm not sure anyone actually cared about or played that system. One thing LotR did do though, is offer a massed battle version (the one with the funny movement trays with holes in them) or the option to play the same models in skirmish games.
I realize that AoS is trying to do that but they didn't need to tank their universe to implement layed-back skirmish rules in to the system. Add to this the long-awaited release of Total War:Warhammer and you have a real head scratcher. People are going to buy and love a video game based on a tabletop game universe...but they can't really play that tabletop game anymore because they shredded all of the books. I laughed in the most recent White Dwarf when GW announced that Bretonnians are coming to the video game! If you got into GW stuff recently you'd read that and be like "what the hell are the Bretonnians?".
GW will see the error of their ways here and I just hope I am still alive to experience the return of the olde world. Until then we have to watch every WFB forum shrivel and die as Warhammer Fantasy crawls towards obscurity.
EEFL.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Sept 9, 2016 19:06:57 GMT
This is a valid point about LOTR that I don't always think of.
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Post by avatarofbugman on Sept 9, 2016 19:41:42 GMT
Gary and Rich,
I was not arguing that Mantic was on par with GW. I was arguing against the term "significantly worse". To me that term means bad and not worth the money. Mantic has very good sculpts, and let us not forget that GW gave us the Skull Pass dwarfs, which I would put, quality wise, below mantic dwarfs. Regular gw dwarfs are the best, however.
Also, Gary, you point out that most of Mantic's sales were for WFB pre-AoS, and that Kings of War only took off moderately after AOS and the implosion of the world we love. This supports my claim that it is not IP, but price that interferes. 40k, which I also play, dies not require the same model count as WFB did. 2000 points of pricey Ogres has more minis in it than 2000 points of pricey Grey Knights, on average (I own both). WFB always needed more minis than even later Warmachine. Remember, I said cost to play, not cost per mini.
GW could surprise us, but I am not hopeful.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Sept 9, 2016 20:58:08 GMT
Why did 40K prosper when Fantasy failed? (would be a good title for an article I would click on)
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Post by mottdon on Sept 10, 2016 7:32:15 GMT
I think it also comes back to marketing. GW pushes 40K like there is no tomorrow. I am constantly seeing advertising across multiple media like Facebook, Email, posters, etc.
The number of 40K games vs Fantasy games is staggering as well. But as soon as a quality Fantasy based game is produced, the hype and talk about it is staggering. And if the show of support for movies like LotR and Hobbit are any indication, people WANT that fantasy world. I don't think that players necessarily want to play with a handful of characters from the movie because that immediately puts them in a narrow scope of discovery and doesn't have the almost limitless potential for imagination that a world such as WFB gave them. LotR was giving them the same fantasy realm but with characters of a much narrower scope without as much high fantasy elements (how many armies could field dragons, dinosaurs or griffins?).
As to other manufacturers like Mantic, they certainly do have a way to go yet, but GW didn't get to their current standard overnight. It'll take them some time, but they have some units that give me hope. I really like their skeleton far more than GWs Tomb King skeletons. Those new kits posted above, while not to the same standard as the Everqueen, are certainly a step in the right direction. GW doesn't have anything like that and I think those would look amazing in a Dark Elf army sandwiched between a unit of Corsairs and a Kharybdiss. Or even in a Lizardmen army with Skink Riders that shot an electrical bolt like an eel from their Tridents. I think there is even something about a giant serpent in Lizardmen fluff. But I digress.
And yes, the price for the sheer number of models that 8th required was (and still is) staggering. WFB didn't need a complete reboot, it needed a way of introducing the game to new players and eventually shifting them over to the massed games we all love. I think that was what so many of us were hoping for, but total abandonment blindsided the vast majority because nobody wanted to believe that the company they had loyally supported for 30 years could so easily destroy their fantasy world.
I'll continue to support various start-ups and companies like Mantic, Avatars of War or Creature Caster in the hope that someone will rise to GWs current model quality, but I also fully expect it to take a while. In the meantime, I will continue to play, teach and incorporate new players, models and rules for new and interesting units (like the Liberators) into my gaming group. In fact, I have a game starting at 9 am (just a few hours from now seeing as it is 2:30 am right now). I'll be teaching a new player the game (8th) because he's wanted to learn for years and never knew anyone who could teach it.
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Post by Horace on Sept 10, 2016 8:32:56 GMT
Fantasy used to be a much larger portion of GW money pie and the drop off is probably due to a dwindling support. 40k has been pushed many times harder over the last decade. LOTR probably had something to do with it early on but not in the cannibalising sales way, more in a contractually obligated to support it way
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Post by Plantag on Jan 1, 2017 18:30:43 GMT
I am liking GW a lot more over the last year. The out reach to the community the better price offerings of there products. White dwarfs return to a magazine with content in it. Inclusion of community in game dev and feedback. These are all brilliant things. However I believe they happened because AOS did fall flat on its face and because the change in leadership at the top and recognition that there exclusion of social media and excessive price had started to strangle there business.
I really do wish them every success. However I can't help but feel if they had done when warhammer fantasy was out they would have turned that game around. It was clear that the End Times success took them by surprise, look at shortage of books, and huge forum interest. There was a pent up demand for that game and a world that moved forward. The return of specialist games and support for Lord of the Rings are all amazing, wish they would just wake up and realize that if they gave 8th to forgeworld and put square bases in there box sets they could easily have both AOS and fantasy.
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Post by KevinC on Jan 3, 2017 22:14:33 GMT
Right on Plantag! Thanks for the insightful post!
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jan 4, 2017 16:00:14 GMT
Gw have definitely improved in this past year.
Imagine if the new CEO had taken over at the start of 8th edition.... What might have been eh?
Due to the AOS battletomes initially failing to sell in comparison with the old WFB army books the new CEO actually released the newer ones at a much more reasonable price. For the generals hand book, GW attempted to make setting up and balancing games easier and actually consulted with the community.
Meanwhile back in 8th I still remember GW greedily doing 3!!! separate price rises for army books the buggers!
The thought of GW actually communicating with it's fans/consumers back then other than to say F U was completely unheard of.
New White Dwarf with content, Warhammer community site, great YouTube painting videos..... GW have done a lot of good work to try and restore their reputation in 2016... I hope it continues.
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Post by vulcan on Jan 4, 2017 23:51:15 GMT
Okay, it's nice that GW has gotten better this year. That's like saying "Sorry, you don't have pneumoniac plague (with a 98% fatality rate), you've only got Ebola (with an 80% fatality rate)." It's not that big a difference to the person who's sick.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jan 5, 2017 4:44:38 GMT
Okay, it's nice that GW has gotten better this year. That's like saying "Sorry, you don't have pneumoniac plague (with a 98% fatality rate), you've only got Ebola (with an 80% fatality rate)." It's not that big a difference to the person who's sick. I know what you're saying.... However ....I would absolutely rather have a 20% survival rate over a 2% one I'm still loving assembling, painting and playing 8th edition and have enjoyed some of the recent GW releases. I just do my own thing really and don't let GW dictate my hobby so I'm maybe less anti- GW than some. They didn't personally do anything to me and while they may have released products containing 'lore' where the Warhammer world was destroyed I just do what I've always done which is take what I like and discard the rest. My Warhammer world is more alive that it has ever been!
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