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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 5, 2022 13:52:37 GMT
If it is a single profile, then, as indicated by the army list entry, it is the profile of the Mangler Squig only. You cannot have it both ways. Regarding your second question: it just follows from the Size Matters rule. O&G p. 33 (Size matters): "For the purposes of this rule, a 'Goblin unit' is any unit that is either made up entirely of Goblins - of any kind - or that is entirely ridden by Goblins, or that has an entirely Goblin crew." So, if this is no longer the case, then such a unit is no longer counted as a "Goblin unit" either. If an Orc character joins a unit of Goblins, then that unit is not made up entirely of Goblins any longer, and will not be counted as a "Goblin unit" either. Similarly, if a mount is not ridden entirely by Goblins any longer, it no longer counts as a "Goblin unit." Normally, the latter cannot happen, unless, of course, you take fluff to be a rule.
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Post by thegoat on Dec 5, 2022 16:06:46 GMT
Even if fluff mattered (which I'm not conceding it does in this case), fluffwise the Orcs think of the Mangler Squig as a Mangler Squig.
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simon
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Post by simon on Dec 5, 2022 17:21:07 GMT
Ok so we agree it doesn't say that a unit can stop being a goblin unit - I guess you were reading between the lines? I can tell you enjoy arguing as much as I do (!) but I think you're over-interpreting the rules here. So far the argument seems to be - a goblin on a massive squig is not a goblin on a massive squig because there isn't a rule saying it is, which makes no sense to me. A mangler has goblins riding it, simple as that. It doesn't need a special rule to say that. It has a single profile just like other 'unique' units, like a gyrocopter which is a dwarf on a helicopter.
If the weatherman says it's sunny and you look outside and it's raining, who are you going to believe, the official weatherman or your lying eyes?!
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 5, 2022 17:32:29 GMT
What is a "Goblin" anyway? I can't find the rule for one.
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Post by thegoat on Dec 5, 2022 17:34:38 GMT
So far the argument seems to be - a goblin on a massive squig is not a goblin on a massive squig because there isn't a rule saying it is, which makes no sense to me. I don't see where anybody said that above. What people are saying is a goblin on a mangler squig, is not a "goblin unit". It is mangler squig unit. A mangler has goblins riding it, simple as that. Just because a unit has a goblin, that does not make that unit a goblin unit. Ruglud's Armored Orcs has a goblin standard bearer. Does that make them a goblin unit? Absolutely not.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 5, 2022 17:35:17 GMT
Well, that is simply the inexorable logic of the rule itself: if a 'Goblin unit' is any unit that is made up entirely of Goblins, a unit that is not made up entirely of Goblins is not a Goblin unit. Consequently, the Size Matters special rule does specifically state: "If a unit that includes even one Orc model should flee, other Orc units will have to test." So, clearly, units can change their Goblin status for the purposes of the Size Matters special rule.
On a final word: as pointed out in the Hatred discussion, all Goblin units can be immediately identified by their troop profile (or troop type in the case of AC) in their army list entry. That is not the case for the Mangler Squigs.
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simon
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Post by simon on Dec 5, 2022 17:48:38 GMT
Of course. When I said unit I meant a unit type not a unit on the tabletop. Obviously a goblin unit on the tabletop can have orc characters within it and vice versa.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 5, 2022 18:43:26 GMT
Great, just so we're crystal clear: Squig Hoppers, Spider Riders and Nasty Skulkers are NOT Goblins, RAW.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 5, 2022 23:14:50 GMT
Of course. When I said unit I meant a unit type not a unit on the tabletop. Obviously a goblin unit on the tabletop can have orc characters within it and vice versa. As already quoted a couple of times: " For the purposes of this rule, a 'Goblin unit' is any unit that is either made up entirely of Goblins - of any kind - or that is entirely ridden by Goblins, or that has an entirely Goblin crew" [ Italics mine]. And what is this rule about? About taking Panic tests - ergo about units on the tabletop, since they are the only ones that can be involved in Panic tests. Great, just so we're crystal clear: Squig Hoppers, Spider Riders and Nasty Skulkers are NOT Goblins, RAW. Very well, I was a bit imprecise: Goblins are identified as such by unit name, troop profile, or troop type in their army list entry - which still does not apply to Mangler Squigs. On a more general note: a game rule either defines terms or concepts relevant to the game, or gives instructions to conduct actions relevant to the game. Now, in Warhammer the rules are almost always interlaced with fluff - things that are neither rules, nor clarifications of those rules (like examples), and which themselves have no bearing on the rules. If you discard them, it does not change anything for the rules. Let us take the Size Matters special rule: Now , the first paragraph contains a rule giving an instruction for an action relevant to the game; the second contains a rule that defines a term relevant to the game, which is then clarified by example. All the rest is fluff that is completely irrelevant for the rules: ruleswise, their presence or absence changes nothing, as is easily proven by deleting them: The same is true of the Mangler Squig special rules. Deleting the fluff changes nothing. And just one for the road: fluff has no bearing on the rules.
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simon
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Post by simon on Dec 6, 2022 9:33:24 GMT
Haha, so it actually mentions the "Night Goblin crew" in the rules and you lawyer your way out of it by defining parts of the rules in different ways so you can disregard the bits you don't like! And all to win a pointless argument on the internet!haha. Where did you get this stuff from anyway? Does it say in the rules that part of the rules can be defined as fluff and ignored? Nonsense is still nonsense even if you add lots of quotations, references and complicated wording to it. This is a game for simulating fantasy battles - it's not a mortgage contract. You need to use common sense to understand it. You can't break it down line, clause and word like some legal document.
The rule says a unit entirely ridden by goblins is a goblin unit. A mangler is entirely ridden by goblins, therefore it is a goblin unit. You happen to think it needs a separate rule to say that, whereas I think it doesn't need a rule to say that because that simply is what it is, rule or no rule, fluff or no fluff.. so.. we have a difference in opinion!
I mean no personal offence to you by the way - are you a lawyer in real life?
Anyway, it's been fun, I'll let you have the last word.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 6, 2022 10:17:29 GMT
The ad hominem arguments aside, you have not given any factual arguments against my previous post. It may have escaped your notice, but this is a sub-forum and a thread where rules are being discussed. As such, it is first and foremost determined by the written rules, and thus, by nature, will require "lots of quotations, references and complicated wording." If that is not your cup of tea, fine, but do not complain about it, either. I do not disregard something as fluff, because I dislike it, nor just on formal grounds, but (as I have pointed out from the start) because of the Mangler Squig army list entry. As it says in the AB: "Each army list entry contains all the information you need to choose and field that unit" and "These entries give you all of the gaming information that you need." Since the army list entry of a unit contains all the relevant rules of that unit, and since there is simply no reference at all to "Night Goblin crew" in the Mangler Squig army list entry, that alone should be have ended the discussion (as it initially did). Certainly, neither you, nor anyone else here, has provided convincing argument why the ALE does not contain such a reference. The "combined profile" was the only try - a nice try, but refuted by the lack of a WS & BS value alone. However, if you do take fluff to be a rule, then, at least you should be consistent. You still have not answered this one, other than by erroneously claiming that the status of Goblin unit for the purposes of the Size Matters special rule does not change. Besides: as so often, interpreting fluff as a rule renders itself absurd. For the purposes of the Size Matters special rule, a unit stops being counted as a Goblin unit, if the Goblins have been killed. According to the fluff with "Gone Crazy!" the Night Goblins are "either pulped to death or too busy holding on." In the first case, the unit would stop being a Goblin unit, but not in the second. Shall we now roll a die to determine whether they are killed or not? Shall the player whose turn it is decide, and shall the Goblins be dead in your opponent's turn, only to be miraculously revived in your own? Occam's Razor shaves again: fluff has no bearing on the rules.
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Post by mrbaldrick on Dec 7, 2022 2:00:51 GMT
Fluff has no bearing on the rules. It really simple: we turn to the army list entry of a Mangler Squig (O&G AB p. 110), which clearly shows that it is ridden by no one. Besides: as so often, interpreting fluff as a rule renders itself absurd. For the purposes of the Size Matters special rule, a unit stops being counted as a Goblin unit, if the Goblins have been killed. According to the fluff with "Gone Crazy!" the Night Goblins are "either pulped to death or too busy holding on." In the first case, the unit would stop being a Goblin unit, but not in the second. Shall we now roll a die to determine whether they are killed or not? Shall the player whose turn it is decide, and shall the Goblins be dead in your opponent's turn, only to be miraculously revived in your own? Occam's Razor shaves again: fluff has no bearing on the rules. You just can't ignore the parts of the rules you don't like. It's not fluff, the crew are literally part of the rules. The model is unique and doesn't have to list their profile. Dude you really need to dial it back some. You are not the end all be all of warhammer. You opinion is exactly that an opinion, not absolutes.
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Post by sonofkurnos on Dec 7, 2022 10:56:14 GMT
Fluff has no bearing on the rules. It really simple: we turn to the army list entry of a Mangler Squig (O&G AB p. 110), which clearly shows that it is ridden by no one. Besides: as so often, interpreting fluff as a rule renders itself absurd. For the purposes of the Size Matters special rule, a unit stops being counted as a Goblin unit, if the Goblins have been killed. According to the fluff with "Gone Crazy!" the Night Goblins are "either pulped to death or too busy holding on." In the first case, the unit would stop being a Goblin unit, but not in the second. Shall we now roll a die to determine whether they are killed or not? Shall the player whose turn it is decide, and shall the Goblins be dead in your opponent's turn, only to be miraculously revived in your own? Occam's Razor shaves again: fluff has no bearing on the rules. You just can't ignore the parts of the rules you don't like. It's not fluff, the crew are literally part of the rules. The model is unique and doesn't have to list their profile. Dude you really need to dial it back some. You are not the end all be all of warhammer. You opinion is exactly that an opinion, not absolutes. They aren't though - they are mentioned, in a fluffy, in universe POV description of how an attack happens. Further, your tone is out of order - you may not agree with FvonSigmaringen however their knowledge of the rules and their application is pretty impeccable, added to which their propensity to provide sources and page references for any advice or answer they give. You'd be well placed to mind your manners.
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Post by johngg on Dec 7, 2022 16:53:33 GMT
Clearly, from the 'SIZE MATTERS ' rule (Orcs & Goblins army book pp.33) the Mangler Squigs are NOT a Goblin unit.
The crux of the matter, in relation to this rule is stated... "However, if a Goblin unit that includes even one Orc model should flee, other Orc units will have to test." Ergo, no Orc model in the unit, therefore no other Orc unit is required to test.
Also, Mangler squigs are EXPECTED to die, if any Orc finds himslef shaken to the core rather than bellow in laughter at the carnage, do they even WAAAGH! ??
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Post by sonofkurnos on Dec 7, 2022 17:38:50 GMT
Clearly, from the 'SIZE MATTERS ' rule (Orcs & Goblins army book pp.33) the Mangler Squigs are NOT a Goblin unit. The crux of the matter, in relation to this rule is stated... "However, if a Goblin unit that includes even one Orc model should flee, other Orc units will have to test." Ergo, no Orc model in the unit, therefore no other Orc unit is required to test. Also, Mangler squigs are EXPECTED to die, if any Orc finds himslef shaken to the core rather than bellow in laughter at the carnage, do they even WAAAGH! ?? Your first paragraph contradicts with you second. You agree the mangler isn't a goblin unit, the quoted passage in your second paragraph starts with 'if a goblin unit..."
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