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Post by thielemann on Aug 7, 2023 20:56:41 GMT
Can one place herders in the front rank of a squig herd in order to force high initiative opponents to attack these cheap models instead of the valuable squigs?
Can one fill up the front rank with squigs as herders die even if there are still more herders in the back row?
The unit would look for example like this:
[enemy unit is here]
hhhhh
sssss
sssss
hhhhh
After the enemy strikes and kills 8 herders it could look like this:
sssss
sssss
hh
Then the squigs still get to strike the opponent who made way for them by slaying a bunch of herders.
Correct?
Of course if I am unlucky and he ends up killing all herders, I don't get to strike back and the squigs go wild instead.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Aug 8, 2023 8:39:22 GMT
Let's see what the rules forum lawyers say but I think that's a legitimate tactic. Not against RAW or RAI.
I mean it's risk vs reward so not broken in anyway. If the herders all killed...bad....or if they only kill a couple, you miss out on a squig attack or 2 due to them being in the second rank.
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Post by thielemann on Aug 13, 2023 11:07:06 GMT
Well, I was mostly thinking of a horde of them with 20 squigs and about 60 night goblins. The squigs would be in the second and third rank and dish out up to 20 S5 attacks.
The night goblins would fill out the first rank as well as the 4th-8th rank. This unit would cost only 100 points more than a night goblin horde but exchange 20 of its attacks for S5. And except for shooting or magic the squigs should be invulnerable.
So you go from 240 points (80 night goblins) to 340 points (20 squigs + 60 night goblin herders). Admittedly the herders lack shields and a parry save but that's true also for a horde of night goblins archers.
For only 42% more points you make that unit at least twice as dangerous.
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Post by Luigino on Aug 13, 2023 11:32:29 GMT
Ok, buy in this hypothetical scenario the solution would simply be refusing to play with your opponent till he arranges them in a more dignified and not so cheesy fashion.
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Post by thielemann on Aug 13, 2023 11:45:41 GMT
Because night goblins are known for their dignity...
I did the math and I think that unit is still less cost-effective than trolls. They give you 21 S5 attacks with 7 trolls for just 245 points and are almost as survivable with their better toughness and regeneration.
It is admittedly a cheesy way of increasing the squig herd's effectiveness but even then they are quite a bit less effective than trolls.
The squigs would be better at breaking steadfast though.
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Post by 1plussave on Aug 14, 2023 22:50:00 GMT
Its an entirely viable option with the obvious downsides already stated; losing the 2 S5 attacks each from the front rank and always having the risk of losing the entire unit to a melee alpha strike. Personally I prefer just adding additional night goblin ranks to the rear of a herd to increase its chance of breaking Steadfast and providing a huge area for "Squigs Go Wild!" to trigger.
Likely would be more useful to make 10/15 man sized suicidal Squig Darts and see how many people you can catch in the AoE, Hand of Gork provides some assistance there.
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Post by wundapantz on Aug 16, 2023 3:23:33 GMT
Previous editions required the Noblins in the back. There is no requirements for this edition.
No more cheesy than characters or kroxigors in the second rank... But missing out on all those attacks makes it more likely to break when fighting lower initiative units.
It does look stupid on the table though, so you break the rule of cool.
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Post by vulcan on Aug 16, 2023 17:04:19 GMT
Pretty sure the rules say you can attack Kroxes in the second rank of a Skrox unit.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Aug 16, 2023 22:15:27 GMT
You must normally place Kroxigor in the second rank (so definitely not cheese), and they can indeed be attacked there.
Lizardmen AB p. 38: "Skink Cohorts may include a number of Kroxigor as upgrades to form a mixed unit.When a mixed unit deploys or reforms, these Kroxigor must be placed in the unit’s second rank, displacing Skink models as necessary to the back rank. When deploying or reforming a mixed unit, the width of the unit’s front rank cannot be less than that of its second rank. If no more Kroxigor can fit in the unit’s second rank, place the remaining Kroxigor in subsequent ranks. If the unit’s front rank is ever reduced so that its width is less than the width of the second rank, a Kroxigor must immediately move to the front rank (displacing rank and filemodels if necessary).
[...]
Unless otherwise stated, close combat attacks can only target Kroxigor within a mixed unit if an enemy model is either in base contact with a Kroxigor, or if an enemy model is in base contact with a Skink who is in turn in base contact with a Kroxigor."
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Post by deathofrats0808 on Sept 13, 2023 15:15:22 GMT
Can one place herders in the front rank of a squig herd in order to force high initiative opponents to attack these cheap models instead of the valuable squigs? Can one fill up the front rank with squigs as herders die even if there are still more herders in the back row? The unit would look for example like this: [enemy unit is here] hhhhh sssss sssss hhhhh After the enemy strikes and kills 8 herders it could look like this: sssss sssss hh Then the squigs still get to strike the opponent who made way for them by slaying a bunch of herders. Correct? Of course if I am unlucky and he ends up killing all herders, I don't get to strike back and the squigs go wild instead. No. The rules for removing casualties say you remove from the back, and the Squig Herd rules do not change this. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 13, 2023 21:27:58 GMT
deathofrats0808: Welcome to the forum. I am not quite sure what your objection is. O&G AB p. 54: "In close combat enemy models must attack the type of models they are in base contact with [...]. All casualties are taken by removing models of the appropriate type. Bring models forward from the rear ranks to fill any gaps that result." Since in thielemann's scenario, the front rank is made up of Herders, the only models that initially can be attacked are those Herders, and any losses would be taken from available Herders in the rear ranks.
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Post by deathofrats0808 on Sept 14, 2023 5:35:55 GMT
deathofrats0808 : Welcome to the forum. I am not quite sure what your objection is. O&G AB p. 54: "In close combat enemy models must attack the type of models they are in base contact with [...]. All casualties are taken by removing models of the appropriate type. Bring models forward from the rear ranks to fill any gaps that result." Since in thielemann 's scenario, the front rank is made up of Herders, the only models that initially can be attacked are those Herders, and any losses would be taken from available Herders in the rear ranks. Thanks, nice to be here. My objection is that, based upon the graphic presented, thielemann is proposing to 'sandwich' squigs between herders, and when casualties are taken, remove the herders at the front, allowing the squigs to attack normally, but preserving some herders at the rear of the unit. Indeed, the second line of the OP askes just that question: "Can one fill up the front rank with squigs as herders die even if there are still more herders in the back row?". As such, my understanding of RAW (and yours as well, from your post) says that this is not allowable. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 14, 2023 7:25:35 GMT
deathofrats0808: Yes, you are correct. After I had switched off my PC for the night, it already dawned on me that the diagram is faulty: the last two Herders should be in the front rank.
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simon
Full Member
Posts: 150
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Post by simon on Sept 14, 2023 11:29:48 GMT
Can one place herders in the front rank of a squig herd in order to force high initiative opponents to attack these cheap models instead of the valuable squigs? Can one fill up the front rank with squigs as herders die even if there are still more herders in the back row? The unit would look for example like this: [enemy unit is here] hhhhh sssss sssss hhhhh After the enemy strikes and kills 8 herders it could look like this: sssss sssss hh Then the squigs still get to strike the opponent who made way for them by slaying a bunch of herders. Correct? Of course if I am unlucky and he ends up killing all herders, I don't get to strike back and the squigs go wild instead. No. The rules for removing casualties say you remove from the back, and the Squig Herd rules do not change this. Yes that's what I thought too - so in the OP's example: after 8 casualties are taken, the unit would look like this: hhsss sssss ss |
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Post by thielemann on Sept 18, 2023 20:40:10 GMT
Thank you for the correction!
I think I got confused by previous editions which state that models in base contact are slain but for the sake of simplicity one can remove them from the rear instead.
But in 8th one in fact HAS to remove them from the rear ranks first.
I am somewhat relieved that this doesn't really work and I am sure someone else would have thought of it earlier if it did.
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