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Post by Naitsabes on Jun 30, 2017 4:18:34 GMT
Inspired by the lively discussions here recently about armies and lists, I am hoping for some input on my newest army-to-be: Dwarfs. I think I have ~1500pts or so and wondering what to chase on ebay to get to 2500.
Basically, I don’t want to play them as shooting the other guy and then charge the poor lads who make it to my gunline. I realize that is likely the most successful way to play and what dwarfs are all about in the background. But, I don’t need to kick in all the teeth all the time so I’d like to do a mixed force with some elements (miners, rangers, others?) able to take the fight to the enemy. The internet says ‘combat dwarfs’ can work…somewhat.
Here is what I have (and what I think):
2x runesmith
2x thane
1x slayer (any point in having this single guy running around? He is a bit slow to be redirecting charges)
EDIT: 1x engineer
EDIT: 25x hw+shield (the internet says, warriors are bad with this weapon load-out, longbeards are the way to go, true?)
10x crossbow+great weapons (so…could be quarrelers or rangers)
10x handguns
30x miners
18x hammerer
1x gyrocopter
2x cannons
2x grudgethrower
What else do I need?
Seems to me a BSB would be important
Then something to fill out the core? Probably another gyro?
Is 18 hammerers enough at 1500pts? What about 2500pts, does it always have to be 40?
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Post by knoffles on Jun 30, 2017 7:46:03 GMT
A few thoughts for you whilst I'm on the train. Sword and board warriors are fine as an anvil. They just lack any real offensive power. Longbeards have an extra pip of Str and WS and access to a magic banner and still come out of core which is why they tend to be the preferred option in this loadout. Still Shieldbeards are fairly pricey so you can get a lot more Warriors. (You can also use your Warriors as Longbeards. I've yet to find an opponent who complains about that as long as they know what they are).
You don't need 40 hammerers. From experience, i would normally suggest a smaller unit (23-30 depending on how many characters are in it). I've found if you have a unit of 40, then opponents who know what they are doing, avoid them like the plague and with only M3 you struggle to get them in combat.
2 Gyros are fantastic. I like running them as a pack and if I have a third, that runs solo. I struggle to use them as a throwaway redirectors and instead use them to harass flanks templating units and forcing March tests. It's amazing how distracting they can be and opponents will sometimes spend a lot of resources trying to get rid of them.
With regards to not being a shooting army, I can understand that but I'd still suggest a couple of warmachines (say 1 cannon and a grudge thrower), if only to help get rid of enemy warmachines or threats such as steam tanks that can do your blocks a lot of damage and without the range of your warmachines, you'll struggle to answer their threat. (Yes rangers and miners can help but if they know you have them, they should deploy to prevent you getting easy access to them)
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Post by knoffles on Jun 30, 2017 8:00:37 GMT
Runesmiths are worth their weight in gold, not just for the dispel potential but giving a unit AP makes a huge difference (especially your shield Warriors/Longbeards.
You definitely need a bsb (I struggle to think of an army that doesn't benefit from one).
Miners are a great unit. I tend to always use the steam drill to help with getting them on (but my single dice rolls suck so I need all the help I can get). You could also always use them as great weapon warriors (and if playing in friendly company then use the shield warriors as ironbreakers).
I like the dwarves, there are lots of good unit combos you can take and most are viable. You have the options in what you have to do viable proxies. Try before you buy and all that 😀
Oh and I love slayers (though struggle to include them in a ranged army). Avatars of War sell them as a unit and they are a good alternative to the GW models (and not metal and much cheaper than eBay prices as a rule).
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Jun 30, 2017 12:45:43 GMT
What about a list with 2 dwarf lords in it?
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Post by mottdon on Jun 30, 2017 16:47:32 GMT
 Welcome to the Clan! I LOVE my AoW Slayers! (They're so polite.) The solo Slayer can be great for protecting your warmachines from ambushers or your backfield in general. If there is a solo Sabertusk threatening your backfield, then he can buy you time to respond and (with some luck) take it out himself. A small contingent (20?) of Slayers would be good to have as well though. I think you could benefit from another 10 Quarrellers. I find that two units of ten, with a block of Longbeards makes a good core choice for 2500 pt armies. (You can use your Thunderers, but Quarrellers have longer range and the ability to take GWs. The Thunderer champ can take a brace of pistols, so they are slightly more defensive.) You can also substitute 10 Quarrellers for Rangers, and still have a unit of Quarrellers available. I'd probably also get at least 10 (I prefer 20) Irondrakes. These guys are awesome. There's another thread where knoffles talks about them in detail. I would absolutely get another Gyro or two. If you have three of those bad-boys on the field, you'll REALLY open up your options! And with three, since you can only upgrade half of your Gyros to have vanguard, two get to be upgraded since you always round up. You might also want to get an engineer incase you do want to have a reliable war machine and save those valuable Runes! |
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Post by Naitsabes on Jul 1, 2017 7:22:02 GMT
Thanks for the feedback guys, exactly what I was looking for. knoffles, glad to hear shieldbeards is a thing. I realized I had painted five more so at 25 it starts getting into respectable unit territory. And yes, runesmiths seem pretty key. I will often go up against chaos warriors, lots of armor to pierce. mottdon, ha! Not sure I am ready for units of angry, naked dudes with orange hair and a bad attitude. one day maybe. right now I am trying to be civilized, like so:  Sticking with longbeards, I can comfortably fill out the core in 2000pts and if I stretch a bit even 2500. But then it will be really character heavy. which gets us to that crazy two lord idea! I guess initially I was thinking no lord because they are so easy to avoid and don't add leadership. but, maybe I need to dwarf up? I'll come up with a couple lists and see what you think. |
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Jul 1, 2017 19:41:25 GMT
I tend to go with just hero's, 2x Rune smith with spell eater runes it's a case of I can do so why not. In tournaments I went with quarrellers with great weapons but much prefer the long beards but when it comes to team events you kinda go with the flow.
Greg
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 23:14:07 GMT
I run just heroes. If I run a lord it's usually a Daemon Slayer. I place him in a spot where he can counter monsters/big nasties. The cannons make those monsters want to come at me, the slayer makes them want to stay away. Lose-lose, which is the best kind of choice for us  Usually I take a runesmith, thane, and engineer. Depending on points I'll add to the list as needed, but those three are my core character choices. |
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Post by Naitsabes on Jul 6, 2017 4:34:12 GMT
okay, let's stick with heroes for the moment. Here is a draft for 1500pts using what I painted (still would need to do the BSB, the miners and touch-up on the gyro). I am away from my army book, so not sure about the runes on the characters, that is work in progress. How much magic protection do I need at this point level? Is something along these lines playable?
(1480pts)
Heroes (298pts)
Master Engineer (70pts)
Runesmith (85pts),Rune of Spellbreaking (1st rune)
Thane (143pts),Battle Standard Bearer, Shield, Rune of Fortitude (1st rune), Rune of Fortitude (2nd rune)
Core (537pts)
24 Longbeards (377pts), full command, Shields, Rune of Slowness
10xThunderers (160pts) Musician, Standard Bearer, Champion,Brace of Dwarf Pistols,Shields
Special (485pts)
Cannon (150pts)Master Rune of Immolation
Gyrocopter (80pts)
Miners (255pts)
20x Miner, Musician, Standard Bearer,Champion,Steam Drill
Rare (160pts)
10xRangers (160pts)
Musician, Shields
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Post by knoffles on Jul 6, 2017 8:54:50 GMT
List looks fine, especially if are wanting to use your painted models. At an early stage it will give you a flavour of a number of units and you can then chop and change later on if you don't like how some of them play. You have one dispel 'scroll' which should be enough at this level. I always live in fear of spells so wedge in as much as possible on the anti magic front!
Like you I'm not near my book so can't remember what the 2nd rune of fortitude does but if you were to take 1 of fortitude and 1 of iron on the bsb, you get +1 to both toughness and wounds. I'd also add a 5pt Ro Stone on him so he gets a 2+ armour save.
Probably a better build would be to give him the MRo Gromril (for a 1+ save), great weapon and then the rune that gives an extra wound or toughness. This build gives a well protected but hard hitting bsb and will help the Longbeards vs tougher or well armoured nme.
If you have a few points left over, give the engineer a brace of pistols and Ro Stone. He then makes a surprisingly good warmachine guard.
However, I'd probably advise that you should drop the engineer altogether and just put a Ro Forging on the cannon as this will have the same effect and will save you 20pts that could be used elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 16:59:24 GMT
Good advice knoffles.
I would mention that I ONLY take an engineer when I include an organ gun in the list. Otherwise I feel a rune of forging does the same job for cheaper with the other warmachines. But when I essentially get a rune of accuracy AND a rune of forging for my organ gun, plus the added benefit of hard cover and a warmachine guard, then the engineer becomes worthwhile to me.
But I also LOVE organ guns so try and include one in all my lists.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 6, 2017 18:43:29 GMT
I'd like to mirror the advice knoffles gave. That's solid advice. I don't think that at this point level, your Thane with a 1+ armor save will be needing an extra wound and toughness. That's a bit overkill, especially when you can really use those points elsewhere. I usually only give a Lord character an extra point of Wound and Toughness and only when I want a Tank Lord (P.S. - that's when you'll want a Lord on Shieldbearers!)
I also don't think that you need the MRoImmolation AND a Master Engineer on your list. That rune is a Dwarf version of a trick. You put the cannon WAAAY away from your forces (or wherever you want combat to happen) so that your opponent will have to separate his forces and IF he kills your crew, then he takes damage from it. (I've used that tactic once against a Bret army and it worked well, drawing one unit of KotR off, but simply didn't do enough damage to take many of them out. It saved me a round or two from them getting into combat, but their speed didn't make that much of a factor. You'll have to keep who you're playing in mind if you utilize it - not much use against mounted armies.) If you take an Engineer with your Cannon, then he can block and fight whatever is charging you and save you another turn (or two) in the same manner. Personally, I'd go with the ME with a RoStone and Brace of Pistols OR Great Weapon.
Something else to consider, that can be quite a bit of fun, is the Banner Rune that allows you a Vanguard move (I forget what it's called at the moment - Strollaz' Rune I think.). Since you have a unit of Rangers in your list, you can use them to block any Vanguard moves that your opponent may have (since Rangers scout ahead and deploy before Vanguard units), then place your (Longbeards) unit behind them so that they can take as much advantage of their Vanguard move as possible. (This can be a problem if you don't have a scouting unit!) That way, you'll be in combat MUCH sooner (and won't lose as much to magic), you'll have 2 units there for a fight, and your Miners can come in behind and join in quickly! It's a great way to put the pressure on quickly and ruin your opponent's strategy. It also takes a lot of attention off your Cannon and weaker unit of Thunderers. Let them protect your Cannon and take advantage of their range, while your Gyro chases down loose ends and your fighty combat blocks all engage quickly.
I think you'd like that if you want to stay away from the traditional Dwarf Gunline.
Btw, that block of Shield beards looks awesome! |
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Post by Naitsabes on Jul 9, 2017 23:41:16 GMT
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I've finalized my list. Not much changed for the units (dropped rune from cannon, dropped shields from rangers but added standard). The Strollaz rune is cool but, stoicism seems like the safer choice. I mostly play against chaos warriors and they typically come at me quickly enough, hoping I can have the miners join in from the flank. At least that's how it works in my head, we'll see.
For the characters, I've kept the engineer for now (and souped him up as suggested). I see what you are saying, makes sense but, I don't have anything else painted I could use these points on. Now the BSB. The two runes of fortitude I had before give him +1 T but, more importantly, a 5++ ward which I don't leave home without with Empire characters. But, I realized if I spent 50pts there, he will have little offensive output and at low point games everybody needs to help out. So, I went with what seems like a more standard setup you suggested.
Let me know what you think. Mostly finished with painting the gyrocopter, BSB is halfway done. Miners are built and magnetized. It is happening!
Dwarfs - Army Book (2014-2) -V8.8.0. (Standard) (1496pts)
Heroes (344pts)
Master Engineer (85pts) Brace of Dwarf Pistols, Rune of Stone
Runesmith (96pts) Great Weapon, Rune of Spellbreaking (1st rune), Rune of Stone
Thane (163pts) Battle Standard Bearer, Shield, Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Cleaving (1st rune), Rune of Cleaving (2nd rune), Rune of the Furnace
Core (537pts)
24x Longbeards (377pts) Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, shield, Rune of Stoicism
10x Thunderers (160pts)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Champion, Brace of Dwarf Pistols, Shields
Special (455pts)
Cannon (120pts)
Gyrocopter (80pts)
20x Miners (255pts)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Champion, Steam Drill
Rare (160pts)
Rangers (160pts)
Musician, 10x Ranger, Standard Bearer
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Post by dannytee on Jul 9, 2017 23:46:59 GMT
The three posts directly above all offer good advice on this list. The only thing I can add is that with all three characters you have above all can end up with a better armor save for just a few points. The rune of stone is 5 points and give +1 armor save. Plus the rune of stone is exempt from the normal rune duplication rules so you can have it on multiple characters with no issue. And on the runesmith you could also add a shield. So with the rune smith for example for just 8 more points you go from 4+ to 2+ armor save (and a parry save). Well worth the points in my opinion.
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Post by dannytee on Jul 9, 2017 23:50:24 GMT
Haha. You posted your updated list between the time I started typing up my comment and posting it. Anyway, the tweaks you made look good. And GW on a runesmith is valid as well as you have done above.
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