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Post by strutsagget on Sept 7, 2017 7:00:20 GMT
H
So I wonder how it works. Both general and specificaly skaven warp canon and goblin rock lobber.
Can they se over a small unit? Can they see through a wood/ into a wood, behind a house?
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Post by knoffles on Sept 7, 2017 7:20:18 GMT
Rock lobbers (whether goblin, Bret etc) can fire at things they can't see (like units behind houses). It used to be called speculative fire. I'll wait for someone near a rule book to confirm but I think you roll to scatter as normal but the difference is, even if you roll a 'hit' it will still scatter the distance shown on the artillery dice. (This is where I now find my memory has failed and I'm thinking of an earlier edition...).
No idea on the skaven cannon.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 7, 2017 7:52:04 GMT
In the 8th edition, you do not need to see over a unit - you can see through a unit or terrain: - BRB p. 10: Line of sight literally represents your warriors' view of the enemy — they must be able to see their foe through, under or over the battlefield terrain, and other models (friendly or enemy).
For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target.
A laser pointer comes in very handy to establish whether you do or don't have LoS. Some template weapons, in particular cannon (including the warp lightning cannon), while not able to aim at something without LoS, can still hit something without LoS, because of the bounce. In addition, as knoffles says, anything that fires like a Stone Thrower (including the Rock Lobber) has the ability to fire indirectly: - BRB p. 115: An indirect shot does not require line of sight, but is otherwise treated as a normal shot and has the usual requirements (the target needs to be in range and outside the minimum range of the stone thrower).
An indirect shot is not as accurate as one where the crew can see their target. If an arrow is rolled on the scatter dice, resolve the scatter as normal. If however, you roll a Hit! on the scatter dice, the shot does not land on target (as would normally be the case) but merely scatters less — how much less depends greatly on the skill of the crew. You'll notice the Hit! symbol has a small arrow at the top of it — this indicates the direction of scatter for an indirect shot — the distance travelled is equal to the score shown on the artillery dice minus the crew's Ballistic Skill characteristic (to a minimum of zero!).
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Post by mottdon on Sept 7, 2017 13:36:00 GMT
This has been a topic of MUCH debate over the years. Mostly with Cannons and LoS. You get into issues like with hills and LoS. You can't see a target on the other side of a hill, but the bounce can. It doesn't make logical sense, but to keep the game playable, it does. With Forests like the Citadel Woods, you can easily see through those three trees. This is why some people like to make their own woods and stuff them full of trees. (Something you might consider if you are having a lot of trouble with cannons.)
There will always be that one jerk, who will try to take advantage of true LoS by modeling his cannon on top of a 1' tall pillar or some such BS. Then he'll argue that he can see everything because his cannon is so high up off the table top, he can draw a LoS to everything. It's a jerk maneuver. Those guys usually go from place to place, playing once or twice (to some unsuspecting victim) and then move on to the next store because nobody will play them after that, or (more often than not) they attend tournaments and try to pull this BS. They are WAAC (Win At All Cost) players.
Fidelis and myself have both participated many, many times in debates like these over this rule over at Warhammer-Empire. I think this is where sportsmanship comes into play. Just don't actively try to take advantage of rules or potential loopholes. I've never played against someone who's done this to me, but I've heard plenty of people tell stories about these kind of encounters. If it were up to me, I would refuse to play anyone who started pulling that kind of stunt.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 7, 2017 14:39:20 GMT
To expand a bit on cannon (and to illustrate the difference between fluff and game mechanics):
- Because of its specific rules, a cannon never actually targets what it wants to hit: you nominate a point you can see for the approximate start of the bounce of the cannon ball. Thus the cannon can hit something, it cannot actually see (like in mottdon's example of a hill).
- You can only hit something in a straight line after the bounce. Indeed, you hit everything in a straight line after the bounce, which means that there may be no friendly units or enemy units in combat between 2" and 20" behind the intial point you have nominated.
- Before the bounce, the cannon ball is a "quantum ball," that can travel through anyone and everything (your own and enemy units, buildings, terrain...) without inflicting damage or being stopped. For instance, if an enemy is hiding behind a building, impeding LoS, you can still nominate a point (with LoS) just in front of the building, and because of the minimal 2" overshoot, the cannonball will travel through the building without being stopped. After the bounce, such a building would stop the cannon ball.
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Post by Horace on Sept 7, 2017 15:19:29 GMT
We tend to play our own house ruled bastardised versions of True Line of Sight. I don't like how it functions with woods, especially woods with moveable trees. We treat such obstacles as sight obstructing etc
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Post by mottdon on Sept 7, 2017 16:15:13 GMT
We tend to play our own house ruled bastardised versions of True Line of Sight. I don't like how it functions with woods, especially woods with moveable trees. We treat such obstacles as sight obstructing etc I think a lot of people do this, but it is very much a "house rule" sort of thing. I tend to do this as well though. Just seems a bit more fair and winds up moving the game along more quickly. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 7, 2017 16:40:30 GMT
Not so much a house rule, as just something I do for verisimilitude: my gunpowder units never fire through friendly units, and I always leave fire lanes for my cannon or HBVG.
Well, in friendly games that is.
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Post by frozenfood on Sept 7, 2017 17:31:19 GMT
Our woods are blocking and a mile high.
Something has to stop all that artillery.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 7, 2017 20:58:41 GMT
Nothing can stop Empire artillery.
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Post by frozenfood on Sept 8, 2017 5:03:55 GMT
Unless I'm using it!
I have the feeling that my steamtank is driven by engineering school drop-outs.
And don't get me started on those drunken canon crews.
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Post by mottdon on Sept 8, 2017 13:43:10 GMT
Lol, so you're saying that your Stank is the Fantasy version of the short-bus? LOL!
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