|
Post by KevinC on Nov 10, 2015 15:58:51 GMT
When targeting with a cannon the rulebook states: "Nominate a point within the war machine's line of sight and this is not outside the cannon's maximum range. Your target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground if you wish" (WFB, pg. 112).
Many players merely choose a point '10 inches from the back of his base.' While that is all fine, we should be ensuring that the cannon can see this point. If they cannot, then they cannot target this point.
I'm posting this here, because I think many players ignore this or forget to check if they even have proper LOS (including myself!!). Cannons are extremely powerful weapons in WFB and one defense against them is ensuring that your opponent is using them correctly!
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Nov 10, 2015 16:16:51 GMT
This is true, especially when there might be a low wall or other terrain feature sitting in the path. Hills have always been a tricky point of contention. Technically, you can see the top of a hill. Does that mean you can target the top and let the bounce hit something 10 inches on the other side, even if you don't have true line of sight or can't see the model? Touchy.
|
|
|
Post by TheREALricksalamone on Nov 10, 2015 17:03:51 GMT
So instead of saying "10 from the back corner of your war machine" I should say "8 from the front of your war machine"?
|
|
|
Post by avatarofbugman on Nov 10, 2015 17:41:39 GMT
Based on that wording you could make excellent use of screening units to prevent site of the ground in front of your heavy hitters. Hmmmm. Would people cry douchebaggery at you over this, though?
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Nov 10, 2015 18:18:33 GMT
Well, with true line of sight, you could still say that you could see between legs and such. I'd say that's about the same level of douchebaggery. "Oh, I'm going to screen my X unit that you're trying to shoot with your cannon by putting my little chaff unit in your way. Now you can't see it." "Well, I can see a spot to shoot between the legs of that one Archer there. I'll shoot at that."
|
|
|
Post by TheREALricksalamone on Nov 10, 2015 18:21:27 GMT
Yeah but if the screening unit blocks line of sight to the point you can just pick another point on the battlefield in line with the target....say "3 inches in front of this screening unit" but also in line with the target you want to hit. The saving grace here is that you can still target a point on the ground. Simply measure from "the back of the target's base" but closer to the cannon by that much. Am I seeing this right in my mind? I don't think you can actually change anything except how the shot is actually declared.
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Nov 10, 2015 18:21:38 GMT
Something else to consider is the range of the cannon is effectively 48" (or 60") + 10" (potentially) due to bounce.
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Nov 10, 2015 18:23:33 GMT
Yeah but if the screening unit blocks line of sight to the point you can just pick another point on the battlefield in line with the target....say "3 inches in front of this screening unit" but also in line with the target you want to hit. The saving grace here is that you can still target a point on the ground. Simply measure from "the back of the target's base" but closer to the cannon by that much. Am I seeing this right in my mind? I don't think you can actually change anything except how the shot is actually declared. That's the way I see it. The only thing that I've ever seen to be truly effective at stopping this are walls. Once it hits the wall, it is destroyed and stops there. Buys the target a round at least.
|
|
|
Post by KevinC on Nov 11, 2015 0:22:01 GMT
I'm on understanding your points, rick and mottdon. The cannon can target any point within its range....as long as it can see the point.
What I'm getting at is that because it's true LOS many players ASSUME they have LOS, especially because you can see through a model's legs, etc. But there are many scenarios where it is actually difficult to see, there are just too many units and/or obstacles in the way.
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Nov 11, 2015 13:25:44 GMT
Yeah, we always check if there anything close by and if there is a question at all, then we just say the shot can't be made. Heck, even though you can technically target a spot between a model's legs, we don't do that just because it feels like cheating. My gaming group is all about trying to be fair and having a good time.
|
|
|
Post by wilsonthenarc on Nov 11, 2015 15:01:38 GMT
IMHO, the current (tournament) rules for cannons are so sucky and so bad and so not matching what I would think real life real world cannons would operate in a game. Sniping a 20mmx20mm character out of a unit of 50 dudes? The gamesmanship of a base that is 100mm long being 4inches giving the shooter a wide range to make contact? They can shoot a single wizard on a disc out of the air. On a bounce? Huh!!??!! No sir, I don't like them. BUT, Flip side of the coin - The very STRONG rules for those that DO bring cannons helps keep monster mash armies in check. Very torn here. I know the 8th rules and they work... I just feel the range guessing is too precise. There is to real world flubbery or accountability for misses. JUST: Nom, 8in from back corner, roll a 6, who cares about the bounce. I think the odds of hitting a monster with a cannon in open field are 81%+. 
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Nov 11, 2015 15:08:23 GMT
I always measure 8" from the front of the unit I want to hit. Maybe I'm wrong in doing that, but it just feels like I hit more often shooting in that manner.
I don't really have a problem with how powerful cannons are though. D3 wounds might make a little more sense, game-wise, but my cannons blow up half of the time on me with my poor dice rolling anyway, that my opponents don't really care. Lol! They usually always have things like Gorgers, Gutter Runners, Shades, Tomb Scorpions, etc. that can deal with them easily anyway.
|
|
|
Post by KevinC on Nov 11, 2015 15:59:53 GMT
Wilson, I've always hated cannons! lol. I do like in 8th edition though, there are some tactics to use against them. Monstrous Infantry for example and "catch" a cannon ball and prevent it from bouncing if they are not slain and obstacles stop bouncing cannon balls.
I point out this LOS sight thing, because there are situations where it is a big trickery than if may seem to target the exact point you want, especially if the cannon is not on a hill.
|
|
|
Post by wilsonthenarc on Nov 11, 2015 16:33:34 GMT
I had an opponent at a tourney, who was otherwise quite pleasant, who brought a laser line level/pointer. He used this for his Ogre Ironblasters. He really pushed and stretched the rules.
He claimed LOS from any point of his base, even the sides. Essentially, if he could draw a line from any point on the front or 2 full sides, he took that shot. He used the laser level for one LOS, and simply claimed that since these are Ogre Giants, they could see over anything. Their head is 7 inches in the air, despite the muzzle of the cannon being 3 inches up... which seemed weird.
And he was very gamey with the "I am placing exactly 4 inches from point X". To the point of using maths and geometry to prove he could (by the narrowest of margins) get 5 models from a unit instead of 4.
Again, friendly enough opponent... Nothing he did was illegal enough for me to call a judge (I'll never call a judge). I just found the ruthless efficiency with which he TOOK ADVANTAGE of cannon rules to be off-putting.
You're already S10 D6 wounds???!!?? Why do you need to dig for even more?
|
|
|
Post by mottdon on Nov 11, 2015 16:40:12 GMT
Yeah, that's pretty rotten gaming to my way of thinking. It's not worth getting that technical over. I look down the barrel of the cannon. If the tip of my cannon can see it, it can shoot it, but of course, I've never even gotten that close to having to see if I can shoot something. I usually just go for the open shot. Less stressful that way. Ogre Ironblasters are nasty too. Not only do you get a cannon, but a chariot, Rhinox and an Ogre, to boot! The biggest thing is that they can move and shoot though. That's crazy good! Hiding behind that building? Well not anymore! One of my best friends always takes two in our games, but I don't really mind because it gives me more of a challenge (and I usually beat him anyway, so I kinda feel bad for him). 
|
|