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Post by knoffles on Jul 28, 2018 7:12:32 GMT
Gents,
I have a query on taking a single pistol vs a brace of pistols. Ignoring the ranged attacks of them, does the single pistol grant you an additional attack in close combat?
The brace of pistols expressly states it does in the rules (for models on foot). The single pistol says it follows the rules for an additional hand weapon so I think it would grant an additional attack to a model with one (as long as they didn't have a magic weapon).
I think it seems really obvious they both grant an extra attack but I never realised it before and wanted to check I wasn't missing anything! (I've nearly always taken a brace on my dwarf engineer but might just take 1 going forward to save a few points).
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 7:35:30 GMT
You are correct. In previous editions, a brace of pistols (on foot) would use its shooting rules in the first round of CC, but not anymore. Of course, the brace of pistols is often still worth its points for shooting e.g. against war machine hunters.
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Post by knoffles on Jul 28, 2018 7:48:02 GMT
Cheers (as always). Good to get clarification Edit: this was mainly driven due to two pages of discussions on the subject on the CDO forum. It seemed obvious but it seemed almost everyone there was of the opinion it couldn’t be used in combat
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 28, 2018 8:11:19 GMT
My pleasure. Don't forget that a Dwarven brace of pistols is Quick to Fire and Dwarf-crafted, giving you a very effective S&S before CC.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 29, 2018 16:24:07 GMT
Cheers (as always). Good to get clarification Edit: this was mainly driven due to two pages of discussions on the subject on the CDO forum. It seemed obvious but it seemed almost everyone there was of the opinion it couldn’t be used in combat For the naysayers on the CDO forum: BRB p. 91: "Unlike other weapons, a pistol can be used as both a missile weapon and a close combat weapon, following the same rules as an additional hand weapon." This sentence is without any possible doubt referring to a single pistol. 1. The BRB clearly states pistol, not brace of pistols. In CC, the pistol is an additional hand weapon, it does not replace the hand weapon. 2. The brace of pistols does not follow the rules for an additional hand weapon. Ruleswise, a brace of pistols is a single weapon with the Requires Two Hands special rule. Thus, it replaces the hand weapon in CC. But since a brace of pistols also has the Extra Attack special rule, the Attacks value is increased by 1 in CC. 3. The difference is also specified on BRB p. 89: "If an infantry model is armed with an additional hand weapon or a brace of pistols, these grant an extra attack. A model can't, however, wield a brace of pistols or additional hand weapon alongside another type of special weapon such as, say, a halberd."
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Post by mottdon on Jul 30, 2018 0:48:25 GMT
I've always imagined the BoP attacker to be shooting off both pistols in someone's face and then pistol-whipping them with one, representing a sudden flurry of attacks. Lol.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2018 11:57:32 GMT
Well, you would be pistol-whipping them with both. No need to draw your hand weapon, just bust your butts.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 30, 2018 15:07:00 GMT
Yeah, the hero probably would use both pistols to pistol-whip with, so it should totally be 4 attacks! At least in the first round of Close Combat. Just two attacks after the first round. (That would certainly end any debate on the subject.)
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2018 15:28:38 GMT
As it happens, warrior heroes will get 4 Attacks (3 A on the standard profile +1 EA) every round of CC, plus 2 S4 attacks, just before the first round of CC, if they can S&S.
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 30, 2018 16:18:16 GMT
What happens if a champion 2Aor hero 3A has multiple choices?
Let's say they have both fireglaves and pistol.
Or great weapon and pistol? Or handweapon and shield and pistol 😊
Are they allowed to choose each round what they use?
If they have two shoot weapons(gireglave and pistol) and standing in a unit with firglaves. Can they still force (the rest of the unit) close range with the pistols?
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2018 16:45:22 GMT
Pistols, brace of pistols, great weapon, fireglaive etc. are all special CC weapons. Basically, anything that is not a HW or magical weapon is a special CC weapon. 1. If he has a special CC weapon, he can never use HW & shield. - BRB p. 89: If a model carries a special close combat weapon, he must fight with it in the Close Combat phase - he cannot elect to wield his hand weapon instead.
2. If he has several special CC weapons, you must choose at the very start of a CC which weapon will be used for the duration of that CC. If that weapon would be destroyed during that CC, you can choose another one. - Ibidem: If the models in a unit carry two special close combat weapons, they must choose which of the weapons to use at the start of the first round of a close combat (the entire unit must use the same weapon, but characters can always choose separately). Whichever weapon they select must then be used for the entire combat, unless the weapon they are using is somehow destroyed — it's no easy thing to change to a different weapon partway through a fight.
3. If he has a magical weapon, he must use this instead of HW or a special CC weapon. - BRB p. 501: A character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons.
4. Of course, you can always S&S, if you also have a ranged weapon like a pistol, and if you use a pistol to S&S, you can still choose another weapon for CC. I am not sure what you mean by "Can they still force (the rest of the unit) close range with the pistols? "
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Post by strutsagget on Jul 30, 2018 17:11:29 GMT
I am not sure what you mean by "Can they still force (the rest of the unit) close range with the pistols? " What I mean is for stand and shoot and fireglaves have longer range. Read range wrong on pistol thought it was closer. So let's say instead the unit has fireglaves (18” range) as weapon and I give the champion a nafta bomb ”6 throwing weapon. Can he choose to use the nafta bomb when charged to make the unit shoot at close range. Champion has both fireglaves and nafta bomb.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2018 19:16:59 GMT
Yes - but...(there is usually a but - see below). As it says on BRB p. 88, "If for some reason a model has more than one missile weapon, he is allowed to choose which one to fire during the Shooting phase." Which obviously applies to S&S too, because "If a Stand and Shoot charge reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit" (BRB p. 17).
Since we are on the subject, I want to point out that the Stand and Shoot rules are often misunderstood. As quoted, "If a Stand and Shoot charge reaction is declared, the unit makes a normal, although out of sequence, shooting attack against the charging unit" – a charging unit that has not moved yet from its starting position. You apply the normal rules for shooting from the starting position of the charging unit: - LoS and frontal arc for each model are determined from that position. - If the target panics, then it will move from that position. - Cover is determined from that position. For instance, other units in between the shooters and the chargers at that position will provide hard cover, even though they may be gone, when the chargers actually move.
The only difference with normal shooting attacks is that models can even shoot when the target is not in range – "here we assume that the charging enemy has entered the weapons' range before the unit shoots" (BRB p. 39). If the charger at its starting position is further away than half the weapon's maximum range, that weapon will suffer a -1 shooting modifier for long range.
And now comes the part that is generally misread: "A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range — the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off" (BRB p. 17).
I put the relevant part in Italics. If the unit does not start its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range, then this does not apply. Given the maximum charge range, you will note that this gives a boon to shorter range weapons. Anything that shoots 24" like the Dwarven and Empire Handguns will normally not be able to benefit. So. to fill in the but from above: you only get the benefit of the shorter range of the nafta bomb, if the enemy starts its charge outside the 18" maximum range of the fireglaive.
As I said, this is generally misread, and people can become quite upset, when I point this out, to the extent that they even claim the firing unit's maximum range is not somehow its maximum range. But as usual: if you and your opponent agree, feel free to deviate from the official rules.
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Post by mottdon on Jul 30, 2018 19:22:29 GMT
Sounds to me like he can choose whichever one he wants to choose as he would in CC if he had two special weapons to choose from.
I suppose that in the case of a unit carrying spears and shields, they could choose to use the Shields and hand weapons instead of Spears? (In the instances where you'd want a parry save over the extra rank of attacks, or in the turn in which they charge.)
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jul 30, 2018 19:25:31 GMT
I am afraid not: as quoted above (BRB p. 89), If a model carries a special close combat weapon, he must fight with it in the Close Combat phase - he cannot elect to wield his hand weapon instead. Spears are special CC weapons too.
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