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Post by strutsagget on Sept 19, 2018 17:24:19 GMT
Hi
I wonder if high magic spell drain magic works on spells that permanently decreases stats.
Like skaven wither or metal plague of rust.
I think it doesn't work but I am not sure as the spell doesn't remain in play.
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Sept 19, 2018 17:57:50 GMT
IIRC, it doesn't affect type-less Spells that permanently affect statlines. It DOES affect single turn spells like Hexes.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 19, 2018 18:54:46 GMT
Here is the relevant wording of the Drain Magic spell (High Elves AB p.62): "All Remains in Play spells affecting the target unit are immediately dispelled, and the effects of all other spells on the target unit immediately come to an end."
The first part is not problematic, and the second part can be read in two ways. For some reason, most people have tended to read it in the way that creates all kinds of problems.
1. If one reads: "[the effects of all other spells] on the target unit immediately come to an end," then the effects of Plague of Rust & Wither would stop, but you also open a humongous can of worms regarding the effects of a spell. I am not a vegetarian, but I'll pass the worms.
2. If one reads: "the effects of [all other spells on the target unit] immediately come to an end," then there is no problem at all. You check whether there is a spell currently on the target unit or not. If there is a spell active on the target unit, its effects are stopped. Since Plague of Rust is not active on the target unit after the Magic phase it was cast, its effects are not affected by Drain Magic either.
One should think that Wither is like Plague of Rust, but there is an FAQ that says otherwise:
Skaven Official Update Version 1.7, p.8:
Q: What happens to characters that either join or leave a unit affected by Wither? Are new models that are added to the unit by spells and special rules affected by the spell?(p79)
A: All models that either join or leave the unit are affected by the spell. If a character leaves and joins another unit, he is affected by the spell, but the unit he joins is not.
So, according to the FAQ, Wither is still a "spell on the target unit," and thus would be affected by Drain Magic. Personally, I do not think the FAQ holds water, but Skaven players may beg to differ - up and until they are facing Drain Magic.
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 20, 2018 5:14:31 GMT
So RAW is, if you don't want to open a can of worms, you can drain magic on a unit with wither but not plague of rust.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 20, 2018 7:54:46 GMT
Yes.
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Post by knoffles on Sept 20, 2018 8:10:16 GMT
I’ve seen a number of comp packs where they specifically state that drain magic doesn’t work on these two, so I guess it’s one of those that comes up reasonably often.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 20, 2018 8:22:48 GMT
In that case, the comp packs should also ignore the Wither FAQ, and treat it like Plague of Rust, i.e. the effect is lasting, but occurs only once (when the spell is cast).
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Post by mottdon on Sept 20, 2018 12:22:36 GMT
Based off the wording from that FAQ, it seems to imply that the effect of the spell is not a one-off event, but is a continuous thing, since any character joining the unit would be effected as well. If that's the case, I'd think that it can be dispelled using Drain Magic. I do like finding new uses for spells and that make thematic sense in this case. This is probably how I'd play it, if agreed upon.
BUT...that gets really complicated and as Fidelis says, "That opens up a huge can of worms".
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Sept 20, 2018 22:45:27 GMT
HUGE can, especially since you can cast Wither on the same unit multiple times.
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Post by vulcan on Sept 21, 2018 1:16:13 GMT
The logical way to handle those two spells is as permanent effects on the models in the unit at the time it was cast. If any model leaves the unit, it's still affected, but any model that joins it after the casting is unaffected. Further application of logic says since the spell goes off, has an effect, and ends - much like a direct damage spell - it can't be affected by Drain Magic. But these rules were written by GW, so logic does not necessarily apply.  |
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 21, 2018 5:40:57 GMT
The can of worm is only huge if you don't read the Skaven faq and you apply it to metal spell plague of rust.
The problem is FAQ and the spell wither and if you are really able to target the unit again if it's already the target of the spell.
For me it sounds like wither was their first attempt to make a remain in play spell.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Sept 21, 2018 8:01:43 GMT
I think the problem is that the Skaven Book is still 7th edition. The FAQ suggests that Wither should be classified as a Remains in Play spell. Unfortunately, after the 8th Edition BRB came out, with its new, detailed spell classification, GW never bothered to apply that classification to the spells of the 7th edition AB that were still valid. |
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Post by vulcan on Sept 21, 2018 22:37:33 GMT
The trick is, Wither isn't a temporary effect. The model loses a point of Toughness, much like when a model loses a wound from a direct damage spell. Likewise, Plague of Rust rusts the target's armor and makes it less effective in the same manner. Sure, a model can heal the would/withering and replace or repair the armor... after the battle. Before then, you're stuck with it.
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Sept 21, 2018 23:31:16 GMT
The can of worm is only huge if you don't read the Skaven faq and you apply it to metal spell plague of rust. The problem is FAQ and the spell wither and if you are really able to target the unit again if it's already the target of the spell. For me it sounds like wither was their first attempt to make a remain in play spell. Remains in Play spells have been a thing since at least 4th edition. Wither is more of a spell that attached a permanent effect. Which is also a thing that they've done in the past. |
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Post by strutsagget on Sept 22, 2018 4:42:54 GMT
Have you read the FAQ? Why would it effect new models long after it was cast if it was not still around?
You can't have both, either you say the FAQ is wrong and it works like the plague of rust. Or you say FAQ is right and then Drain Magic works.
”A: All models that either join or leave the unit are affected by the spell.”
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