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Post by strutsagget on Dec 4, 2018 13:44:44 GMT
So trying to figure out if this was fixed by any Errata/FAQ?
Or if I am opening a huge can of don't go there.
So I find posts saying Killing Blow works on both ethereal and on a 5+ (boosted by magic) even though wounding needs a 6s. Example S4 vs T6.
It sounds fishy to me. I would play as if you don't can hit you can't wound/slay (ethereal) and if you need 6+ to wound you can't slay on 5+.
How do people here play it?
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Dec 4, 2018 14:12:58 GMT
I would argue that Ethereal cannot be killed by Killing Blow unless the Killing Blow is a magical attack. Killing Blow requires you to roll a 6 (or 5 for spells etc) to wound, but Ethereal cannot be wounded, so I would say you would never roll to wound, so Killing Blow could never be triggered. 100% RAW there's nothing explicitly saying Killing Blow wouldn't work, but that argument is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. From a fluff perspective, if that carries any credence, it doesn't matter how beautiful/strong that axe swing is, it won't decapitate a ghost.
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Post by Horace on Dec 4, 2018 15:00:57 GMT
I would agree although it is not super clear cut.
"Conversely, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects."
The argument is I guess that KB is not a wound per se. But would you even roll to wound with mundane weapons against Ethereal enemies, since they can not be harmed by your attacks?
I would play they can not be wounded because it seems that would be the obvious intent of the rule in addition.
As for the 5+ thing, yes I would say the KB would work on a 5+ (assuming the spell or whatever is in effect) regardless of the targets toughness. Toughness is not a consideration for KB
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Post by strutsagget on Dec 4, 2018 15:10:52 GMT
Poison that works on to hit does not work and is FAQed though.
So if you have poison 5+ and need a 6+ to hit poison will only work on 6.
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Post by Horace on Dec 4, 2018 15:19:49 GMT
Where abouts is that FAQ? It is also a different rule. There are no 7s to wound like in hitting, all wounding is done on a 6 max, which is boosted to a KB 5+ through some very exceptional abilities. Grom being one which springs to mind. He Killing Blows all Elves "on a roll of a 5 or 6", no mention of toughness so it is irrelevant.
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Post by strutsagget on Dec 4, 2018 18:59:39 GMT
Where abouts is that FAQ? It is also a different rule. There are no 7s to wound like in hitting, all wounding is done on a 6 max, which is boosted to a KB 5+ through some very exceptional abilities. Grom being one which springs to mind. He Killing Blows all Elves "on a roll of a 5 or 6", no mention of toughness so it is irrelevant. Q: Do Poisoned Attacks that wound automatically on a To Hit roll of 5+ or better still need to hit to cause a Wound?(p73) A: Yes. So the idea is that you have to cause a wound to slay  |
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Dec 4, 2018 21:30:50 GMT
The Killing Blow question is a lot more difficult. I would tend to lean towards S4 not being able to Killing Blow a T6 model on a 5+. The FAQ about Poisoned Attacks is my reasoning for that. Very unfortunately, and the largest counter to my argument, the Poisoned Attacks and Killing Blow rules do not use the exact same wording in the BRB, but the differences I think are mostly semantic. Poisoned Attacks requires the unmodified hit roll to be a 6 and Killing Blow requires the wound roll to be a 6. The FAQ does explicitly say, though, that the attack must actually hit the target for the special rule to come into effect, even if the Poison was boosted to a 5+. RAW Poisoned Attacks of 5+ could wound a target on a 5+ even if a 6+ was required to hit it, but the FAQ shoots that down. I believe that exact logic should then be applied to the Killing Blow rule. A wound roll of 6 removes all wounds from the model and ignores armor, and then that could be boosted to a 5 by something like Tullaris Dreadbringer, but you cannot remove all wounds from the model if the attack would not wound in the first place. Hopefully my logic is reasonably clear and at all useful.
Also, as an aside, since Poisioned Attacks calls out unmodified hit roll but Killing Blow doesn't, does that mean that a spell like Flaming Sword of Rhuin would cause Killing Blow to trigger on 5+ since the 5s become 6s? I think it does, but I've never actually considered or thought about that before now. |
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Post by knoffles on Dec 4, 2018 21:51:40 GMT
Tomb kings have a spell called Djafs incarnation of cursed blades. This grants killing blow or if a model already has it, KB then takes effect on a 5+. I’m not sure if it counts as giving the unit magic attacks though, as although it doesn’t state it gives them magic attacks in the description, I’m not sure if there is something in the brb rules that says spell augments on weapons grants magic attacks.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 5, 2018 17:37:52 GMT
1. Spell augments do not grant magical attacks unless they spefically state otherwise, like the Flaming Sword of Rhuin already mentioned above (BRB p. 492): "The target unit also counts as having both magical attacks and the Flaming Attacks special rule." So, a spell boosting the Killing Blow to 5+ does not make it a magical attack, unless specifically stated otherwise. Equally, boni when rolling to wound (like from the FSoR) do not apply to the Killing Blow special rule, unless specifically stated otherwise. [vide infra]
2. As pointed out above: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects" (BRBp. 68). Therefore, unless the Killing Blow is made by a magical attack, it cannot affect Ethereals. For instance, if a Witch Hunter is equipped with the Ruby Ring, the Fireball (a magical attack) will have the Killing Blow special rule. If that Killing Blow would take effect on a 5+, then this will obviously apply too.
3. Any argument that a Killing Blow attack is not a wound per se would be erroneous.
- You need to roll to wound for the Killing Blow to work in the first place.
- In the paragraph "Wounds inflicted" on BRB p. 52, it states: "Attacks that kill a model outright (made with a Killing Blow, say - see page 72) count as having scored all the slain model's remaining wounds."
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 5, 2018 21:47:03 GMT
Looking at the KB rule, it simply say that when rolling to wound and scoring a 6, you ignore the armour/regen and remove the rest of the wounds too... So gaining this ability on a 5+ will do the same. Ofc, if its a non-magical KB attack vs. Ethereal, then it'll will do nothing xD  |
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Dec 5, 2018 22:38:28 GMT
Equally, boni when rolling to wound (like from the FSoR) do not apply to the Killing Blow special rule, unless specifically stated otherwise. I'm a little unclear as to the reasoning for this. The trend in the rules from what I've seen tends to be to specify when modifications are not used, rather than when they are. The Poisoned Attacks rule mentions a natural roll of 6, there are many rules that mention unmodified leadership or other characteristics, and so on. So because Killing Blow does not specify unmodified roll of 6, wouldn't the modification count? |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 5, 2018 23:17:12 GMT
To your great disappointment, I must point out that you are, in fact, correct.
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 6, 2018 2:14:29 GMT
So having a -1 To Wound cast on you, whilst you have the KB on 5+ buff on... Could mean that you KB on a 4+? 4 + 1 = 5?  |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 6, 2018 8:59:44 GMT
No. Having a -1 To Wound cast on you, whilst you have the KB on 5+ buff on, would mean that you need a 6 for a KB.
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Post by thezildo on Jan 6, 2023 5:13:58 GMT
Calling back this old relic of a thread mostly just to gripe about killing blow some. The rules for killing blow say that on a roll of a 6 there is no armor save or regen saves but a ward save could be made. If it fails the ward save then the model is slain outright. Simple enough and makes sense to me. KB rule continues to say that KB only works on infantry, cavalry, and war beasts. Other units are either too large or too numerous to kill outright. Also, understandable and reasonable. My gripe is that I know things are too large/numerous to kill outright, but KB should still mean no armor save or regen save even if you can’t kill the model outright. Logically speaking (big mistake when discussing warhammer rules, I know) if a killing blow on an infantry model was struck with such precision and/or force that it carved right through the armor, then shouldn’t that also happen when striking something larger with a KB hit that is equally precise and/or forceful but they are resilient enough to survive the blow so instead only taking 1 wound instead of dying completely.
Im tempted to try and house rule it that KB attacks with a wound roll of 6 ignore armor and regen saves regardless of if it is a model that can be killed outright from KB. Has anyone tried anything like this before and does anyone see a problem that this rule could cause?
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