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Post by crownprinceimrik on Dec 16, 2018 20:32:10 GMT
Hello
I think I know the answer to both of these, but just to be sure:
1. Do you roll to destroy the magic item using Arcane Unforging regardless of whether or not the spell caused a wound?
2. Does Mindrazor modify armor saves, or do you only use the improved strength when rolling to wound and then revert back to the original strength for the armor save modifier?
Thanks!
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 16, 2018 21:58:15 GMT
1. Yes.
2. Yes (it modifies armour, as you're using the Ld value as Strength when rolling to wound).
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 16, 2018 23:10:49 GMT
1. Yes. The second effect is not dependent on the first effect succeeding.
HE AB p. 62: "Direct Damage spell with a range of 24" that targets a single enemy model (even a character in a unit). The target suffers a single Wound on a dice roll etc. .... The owning player must reveal all the magic items possessed (if any). If the target has one or more magic items, randomize which item is to be affected - that item is immediately destroyed on a roll of 2+..."
2. No. Okkam's Mindrazor does not give you improved Strength, but allows you to use Ld instead of S "when rolling to wound." Since it does not specifically state it affects armour saves too, it does not.
BRB p. 498: "Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)." |
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Post by crownprinceimrik on Dec 17, 2018 19:01:30 GMT
Does the adjustment of the phrasing of the spell in the FAQ change that answer for Mindrazor, or was the FAQ adjustment just a semantic re-phrase?
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Post by vulcan on Dec 17, 2018 23:18:53 GMT
2. No. Okkam's Mindrazor does not give you improved Strength, but allows you to use Ld instead of S "when rolling to wound." Since it does not specifically state it affects armour saves too, it does not.
BRB p. 498: "Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)." Double-check your FAQ's because I could have sworn GW said otherwise and we always played it that way. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 18, 2018 0:04:49 GMT
crownprinceimrik : It is just a semantic rephrase. Original version: "Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)." Updated version: "Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound for all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)." vulcan: You would have committed perjury. Apart from the amendment quoted above, there is only this FAQ: Official Update Version 1.9, p. 11: Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107) A: Yes
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 18, 2018 16:44:26 GMT
vulcan : By delving into the mists of history, I can now absolve you from perjury. The amendment quoted above was already included in the first Update Version 1.1 of 2010. In Update Version 1.5 of 2012, the amendment was yhen changed to: Reference Section – The Lore of Shadow, Okkam’s Mindrazor Change “[...]Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling To Wound with[...]” to “[...]Models in the target unit use the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile, instead of their Strength, for[...]” Or written out: "Models in the target unit use the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile, instead of their Strength, for all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)." However, the next Update Version 1.6 (also from 2012) returned again to the original wording of the amendment [edit: which remained the case ever since]. So, for a couple of months in 2012, you were indeed allowed to apply Mindrazor to Armour Saves.
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Post by knoffles on Dec 18, 2018 18:18:12 GMT
Yet another correction to the mindset. No.2 is another rule I don’t think I’ve ever seen played correctly...
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Post by vulcan on Dec 19, 2018 2:18:46 GMT
Then that makes Mindrazor dramatically overpriced in casting cost. 2+ to wound, whoop-tee-doo when dealing with decent armor saves.
For a 'six' spell that's pretty darn weak, if you ask me. It makes Shadow less useful than other lores with 'save or suck' six spells.
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Post by strutsagget on Dec 19, 2018 7:33:10 GMT
vulcan : By delving into the mists of history, I can now absolve you from perjury. The amendment quoted above was already included in the first Update Version 1.1 of 2010. In Update Version 1.5 of 2012, the amendment was yhen changed to: Reference Section – The Lore of Shadow, Okkam’s Mindrazor Change “[...]Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling To Wound with[...]” to “[...]Models in the target unit use the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile, instead of their Strength, for[...]” Or written out: "Models in the target unit use the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile, instead of their Strength, for all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)." However, the next Update Version 1.6 (also from 2012) returned again to the original wording of the amendment [edit: which remained the case ever since]. So, for a couple of months in 2012, you were indeed allowed to apply Mindrazor to Armour Saves. Whaooo! Nice catch and good job! |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 19, 2018 10:34:12 GMT
As it turns out, @discoqing and vulcan were right all along. I completely misread the amendment. As crownprinceimrik suspected, it is not just a semantic rephrase. The amended text should actually read: "Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength for all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any Strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)." Therefore, AS will be modified. Quandoque bonus dormitat Fidelis.
And for some reason, I cannot tag DiscoQing. |
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 19, 2018 19:53:28 GMT
I'm untaggable - like a wild stallion *guitar noise*
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Dec 19, 2018 23:30:25 GMT
Either that or you antagonise too much...
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Post by DiscoQing on Dec 19, 2018 23:40:57 GMT
Lol you nerds and your literal interpretations -  x x |
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Post by gregwarhamsters on Jan 13, 2019 21:44:22 GMT
So Ld 9 = S9 so no armour save allowed against these attacks.
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