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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 29, 2018 7:45:01 GMT
Hey guys,
I have a game coming up on the 31st, and I'm going to be running Bretonnia. Here's my list - the plan is to anchor my centre with the 100-man peasant block, accompanied by the Damsel w/ Lore of Beasts and the Prayer Icon of Quenelles for that sweet, sweet 5+ ward and +1 strength & toughness from Wyssan's Wildform. Depending on my opponent's deployment, the Grails, Errants and character bus with the Standard of Discipline will load one flank, while the 'basic' unit of KotR will deploy on the other side of the peasants as support, or as a sacrificial lamb to stall out any units that I can't deal with in a timely fashion. To that end it might be worth swapping out the Potion of Foolhardiness on my Lord for the Gleaming Pennant on the sacrificial KotR to keep them in the fight longer, since they'll likely be away from the BSB and general. Thoughts? The Prophetess goes in the Errants in case of an untimely miscast. The archers and trebuchets are, of course, for shooting, and skirmishing Bowmen and Yeomen are chaff/redirectors to help me get those all-important charges.
Also, I'm running the Virtue of the Impetuous Knight instead of Heroism on my general because one of my buddies plays Albion from the Warhammer Armies Project and they get army wide re-rolls to their charge distance in addition to +D3 inches on their charges when nearby Warleaders and Chieftains (their combat lords & heroes, respectively). A lot of the monstrous units in the army also have a six inch move, which means functionally that they often end up charging as far or farther than knights, so I'm going to have to up my chaff game, but I'm also hoping that Impetuous Knight is going to give me the edge I need here.
Just out of curiosity, what are people's experiences running two units 40-50 of Men-at-Arms vs. one massive unit? Running a character in one with the Ruby Goblet and a Damsel in the other with the Prayer Icon could potentially be pretty good, I think. I've only used Men-at-Arms once before since I just bought these models on Ebay, but it seems like they're a really solid unit when properly supported. Thirty strength 5 attacks with Wyssan's and a 5+ ward is nothing to scoff at - last game I played they fought a giant block of 30-something Dwarf Warriors w/ great weapons and assorted characters (including Thorgrim!) to a standstill long enough for me to organize a flank charge with my Grail Knights. I've seen OnceBitten360 on Youtube run 100 peasants, but I do wonder if two blocks of fifty wouldn't be a more flexible and still a perfectly adequate tarpit?
++ Standard (Bretonnia - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.6.6.) [2998pts] +++ Uncategorised +- Army Size: Grand Army (3000+ points) + Lords +Bretonnian Lord [234pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knights Vow, Shield . Magic Items and Virtues: AB - The Heartwood Lance (Mounted only), BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Potion of Foolhardiness, Virtue of the Impetuous Knight (1st) Prophetess of the Lady [265pts]: Bretonnian Warhorse, Lore of Life, Wizard Level 4 . Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll + Heroes +Damsel of the Lady [130pts]: Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 2 . Magic Items: AB - Prayer Icon of Quenelles Paladin [130pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knights Vow, Lance, Shield . Magic Items and Virtues: AB - Gromril Great Helm, BRB - Sword of Might Paladin (Army Battle Standard Bearer) [124pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knights Vow . Magic Items: BRB - Enchanted Shield, BRB - Ogre Blade + Core +Knights Errant [221pts]: 9x Knight Errant . Champion . Musician . Standard Bearer: AB - Errantry Banner (Knights Errant only) Knights of the Realm [255pts]: 9x Knight of the Realm . Champion . Musician . Standard Bearer: BRB - Standard of Discipline Knights of the Realm [240pts]: Champion, 9x Knight of the Realm, Musician, Standard Bearer Men-at-arms [512pts]: Champion, 97x Man-at-arms, Musician, Pole-arm, Standard Bearer Peasant Bowmen [65pts]: Braziers, 10x Peasant Bowman Peasant Bowmen [65pts]: Braziers, 10x Peasant Bowman Peasant Bowmen (Skirmishers) [75pts]: Braziers, 10x Peasant Bowman + Special +Mounted Yeoman [80pts]. 5x Mounted Yeoman: 5x Shields + Rare +Field Trebuchet [100pts]. Peasant . Peasant . Peasant: Yeoman Craftsman Field Trebuchet [100pts]. Peasant . Peasant . Peasant: Yeoman Craftsman Grail Knights [402pts]: 9x Grail Knight . Musician . Standard Bearer: AB - Banner of Defense ++ Total: [2998pts] ++Created with BattleScribe |
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Post by gregr on Dec 29, 2018 9:09:07 GMT
Personally I'd be tempted to run with two units who can support each other's flanks etc. If you have one large unit of 100 then it only takes a fast cav unit to the flank etc to hold up 500 for a couple of turns.
Other than that I like the look of this list!
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Post by knoffles on Dec 30, 2018 7:08:20 GMT
It’s probably worth bringing it once just to see the look on your opponents face. I’ve only bought something that size once but it was a goblin unit back in 4th edition. Two units of 50 are probably better overall if only for the flexibility.
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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 30, 2018 8:42:15 GMT
Hey guys thanks for weighing in. On another note altogether, I've been contemplating more peasant-heavy lists now that I've got the models to actually run something in that vein. How's this for an 'Agincourt' style list with a huge Grail Star? One Damsel goes in each unit of men-at-arms (for portable Wyssan's, and the Prayer Icon for one of the units), and the Paladin BSB with the Ruby Goblet and Empathy will...ahem...hide in the other. I would have liked to put the BSB on foot, but unfortunately it's almost impossible to get the poor guy a decent armour save without his barded warhorse. Anyway, suffice to say that he's going to function like a second general, essentially, to keep the peasants in line with leadership 8 and a re-roll. The Prophetess is going to chill with one of the units of archers. The three characters with the Grail Vow go into the big unit of Grail Knights. In a pinch, the archers can be used as chaff. This is essentially a Bretonnian version of a High Elves build one of the guys from my gaming group runs - a giant bus of twelve Silver Helms with three characters, several units of archers, three bolt throwers and tons of chaff. Interestingly I also don't have to pray with this build, because knights with the Grail Vow receive the Blessing regardless and peasants can't benefit from it (Prayer Icon notwithstanding) whether I pray or not. I'm going to have more drops than my opponent 90% of the time, at least in my gaming group, but that being said it still gives me a chance to get an extra turn of shooting, even if it's hardly a sure thing. ++ Standard (Bretonnia - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.6.6.) [3000pts] +++ Uncategorised +- Army Size: Grand Army (3000+ points) + Lords +Bretonnian Lord [259pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Grail Vow . Magic Items and Virtues: AB - Armour of Agilulf, AB - The Lance of Artois (Mounted only), BRB - Dawnstone, Virtue of the Joust (1st) Prophetess of the Lady [265pts]: Lore of Life, Wizard Level 4 . Magic Items: AB - The Verdant Heart + Heroes +Damsel of the Lady [130pts]: Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 2 . Magic Items: AB - Prayer Icon of Quenelles Damsel of the Lady [130pts]: Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 2 . Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll Paladin [151pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Grail Vow, Lance, Shield . Magic Items and Virtues: BRB - Dragonhelm, BRB - Potion of Foolhardiness, Virtue of the Impetuous Knight (1st) Paladin [151pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Grail Vow, Lance, Shield . Magic Items and Virtues: AB - Gromril Great Helm, BRB - Sword of Might Paladin (Army Battle Standard Bearer) [124pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knights Vow . Magic Items: AB - The Ruby Goblet, BRB - Enchanted Shield, Virtue of Empathy (1st) + Core +Men-at-arms [272pts]: Champion, 49x Man-at-arms, Musician, Pole-arm, Standard Bearer Men-at-arms [272pts]: Champion, 49x Man-at-arms, Musician, Pole-arm, Standard Bearer Peasant Bowmen [65pts]: Braziers, 10x Peasant Bowman Peasant Bowmen [125pts]: Braziers, 20x Peasant Bowman Peasant Bowmen [125pts]: Braziers, 20x Peasant Bowman Peasant Bowmen (Skirmishers) [75pts]: Braziers, 10x Peasant Bowman Peasant Bowmen (Skirmishers) [75pts]: Braziers, 10x Peasant Bowman + Special +Mounted Yeoman [80pts]. 5x Mounted Yeoman: 5x Shields + Rare +Field Trebuchet [100pts]. Peasant . Peasant . Peasant: Yeoman Craftsman Field Trebuchet [100pts]. Peasant . Peasant . Peasant: Yeoman Craftsman Grail Knights [501pts]: 12x Grail Knight . Musician . Standard Bearer: BRB - Banner of Swiftness ++ Total: [3000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe |
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Post by gregr on Dec 30, 2018 9:36:23 GMT
It seems a good idea. However the USP of Bretonnia is massed cavalry in lance formation with peasant support. I'd be interested to see how this goes!
Did they change the rules in 8th regarding knights of the realm? In previous editions it was compulsory to have at least one.
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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 30, 2018 11:25:53 GMT
I've seen it debated online whether or not the 8th edition FAQ removed the 1+ requirement on Knights of the Realm, but at least with my group they're willing to allow it in any case.  I do agree with you that this is a very strange Bretonnia list! I'm honestly not sure whether it's going to be good, or end up being a goofy 'lovely filth down here!' meme list, sort of like running all zombies with Vampire Counts. I will say from personal experience that peasant bowmen are surprisingly decent missile troops and men-at-arms with Wyssan's Wildform can punch way above their weight, so I guess we'll see. Honestly I just want to see if the 'Agincourt' build is viable in 8th edition, because it would make for a nice occasional change of pace. Oh, and also I want to see whether or not it's possible to make a list that doesn't require the Blessing, as awesome a boon as it is, to function. |
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Post by midnightfox0083 on Dec 30, 2018 12:08:51 GMT
Yep, you're missing the mandatory 1+ KotR unit.
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Post by chaosreigns on Dec 30, 2018 23:56:45 GMT
My gaming group has granted me the concession of removing the 1+ KotR because there's some debate, as I understand, over whether or not the FAQ was intended to do so anyway. Duly noted in the event that I play against people I know less well, however. |
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Post by grandmasterwang on Jan 4, 2019 11:54:41 GMT
I've never seen a unit of 100 men at arms before so I'm going to recommend going with that build....
..and posting pictures of said unit on the forum in the battle!
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Post by DiscoQing on Jan 7, 2019 3:16:19 GMT
What's with the craftsmen on the Trebs? You need the extra Ld? Also, Where's Louen?  |
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Post by chaosreigns on Jan 7, 2019 5:13:23 GMT
The bonus ballistic skill they provide doesn't initially seem like much, but it makes indirect fire much more accurate, and I find with Bretonnia you're firing indirectly as often as not because the knights tend to find themselves blocking the crew's line of sight. Incidentally my gaming group is going to let me use the WAP fan rules for Louen (and Hippogryphs more generally), so I suspect both will be making appearances in the future at some point. |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 7, 2019 11:17:58 GMT
I would agree with chaosreigns that the requirement for at least one unit of KotR no longer exists. It is not just that the ammendments delete the relevant paragraph in the side bar. Bretonnia Official Update Version 1.6, p. 2: also specifies:
Page 64-65 – Marshalling the Host.
Ignore these pages and use the rules for ‘Choosing Your Army’in the Warhammer rulebook.
However, these deleted rules were the basis for applying the numbers:
"In some cases other limitations and/or requirements may apply to a particular kind of unit. This is specified in the unit entry. For example, Knights of the Realm have a +1 note in front of their entry, denoting that at least one unit of them must always be taken. Other units, such as Grail Knights, are accompanied by a note (ie. 0-1) explaining that a maximum of one unit of this kind can be included in the army."
Since this basis is null and void, and the BRB does not contain anything similar, the numbers as such are null and void too.
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Post by chaosreigns on Jan 7, 2019 17:04:17 GMT
Thanks FvonSigmaringen! I guess that means I can take multiple units of Grail Knights without feeling guilty.  So I played a game with the Agincourt list and made some revisions based on my experiences. Basically how it shook out last game was that my opponent slew...a lot of peasants, but they're so inexpensive I still won on points. The Grail star was good but its potential applications are extremely narrow, and if luck had gone against me the unit is worth over a thousand points. Not to mention if I had been playing a faster army and they had been charged they would have been shut down pretty handily, Grail knights or no. Suffice to say that I think it's better to just pray and field multiple units of knights. A friend from out of town who plays Bretonnia is going to take the list for a spin tomorrow. At Sedge's suggestion I've pooled most of the archers into a single unit to (hopefully) maximize their effectiveness with Harmonic Convergence from the Prophetess. Last game they did very little and I suspect that to do a true 'Agincourt' list, one would need significantly more than 60 or 70 archers, but I'm going to give it another shot and see how they fare with magic support. ++ Standard (Bretonnia - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.6.6.) [3000pts] +++ Uncategorised +- Army Size: Grand Army (3000+ points) + Lords +Bretonnian Lord [234pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knights Vow, Shield . Magic Items and Virtues: AB - The Heartwood Lance (Mounted only), BRB - Dawnstone, Virtue of Heroism (1st) Prophetess of the Lady [250pts]: Lore of Heaven, Wizard Level 4 . Magic Items: AB - Prayer Icon of Quenelles + Heroes +Damsel of the Lady [140pts]: Bretonnian Warhorse, Lore of Beasts, Wizard Level 2 . Magic Items: BRB - Dispel Scroll Paladin [130pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knights Vow, Lance, Shield . Magic Items and Virtues: AB - Gromril Great Helm, BRB - Sword of Might Paladin (Army Battle Standard Bearer) [124pts]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knights Vow . Magic Items: AB - The Ruby Goblet, BRB - Enchanted Shield, Virtue of Empathy (1st) + Core +Knights Errant [221pts]: 9x Knight Errant . Champion . Musician . Standard Bearer: AB - Errantry Banner (Knights Errant only) Knights of the Realm [279pts]: 10x Knight of the Realm . Champion . Musician . Standard Bearer: BRB - Standard of Discipline Men-at-arms [262pts]: Champion, 47x Man-at-arms, Musician, Pole-arm, Standard Bearer Men-at-arms [267pts]: Champion, 48x Man-at-arms, Musician, Pole-arm, Standard Bearer Peasant Bowmen [305pts]: Braziers, 50x Peasant Bowman Peasant Bowmen (Skirmishers) [75pts]: Braziers, 10x Peasant Bowman + Special +Mounted Yeoman [80pts]. 5x Mounted Yeoman: 5x Shields Pegasus Knights [165pts]: Champion, 3x Pegasus Knight + Rare +Field Trebuchet [100pts]. Peasant: Yeoman Craftsman . Peasant . Peasant Field Trebuchet [100pts]. Peasant: Yeoman Craftsman . Peasant . Peasant Grail Knights [268pts]: 6x Grail Knight . Musician . Standard Bearer: AB - Banner of Chalons ++ Total: [3000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe |
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Jan 7, 2019 17:22:33 GMT
Thanks FvonSigmaringen! I guess that means I can take multiple units of Grail Knights without feeling guilty. Remember that you can have only 2 rare choices of the same type in normal armies, to a maximum of 4 in a Grand Army. Congratulation on your victory. |
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Post by chaosreigns on Jan 8, 2019 2:47:23 GMT
Thank you! And don't worry FvonSigmaringen, I won't get any funny ideas. |
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