That Guy
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Stay dangerous, it's safe out there...
Posts: 34
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Post by That Guy on Feb 14, 2016 22:09:18 GMT
Did anyone here update or fix certain army minor issues for balance? Specifically Orcs & Goblins, I don't really have a problem with the animosity rule but the armies effectiveness can be greatly downplayed because of that, cause its possible to be a 1's man for the game and yeah the opposite is also true as a 6 man but the 1's hurt significantly more then the 6's help also rolls of 2-5 having you declare a charge as if frenzied sucks.
Not trying to complain just was not sure if anyone developed a more advanced table. I play high elves so I am not used to being restricted by random disasters.
Also points costs for black orcs, is it not safe to say they are a flat 12 ppm w/ shields? Or maybe 11 ppm w/o shield? Also the arachnarok spider is insanely priced, think it should be a minimum 30 points cheaper. That's really all I have concerns for now that I am starting them.
This balance of randomness too anything developed for skaven?
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Post by roughtimes on Feb 14, 2016 23:27:07 GMT
Do you want skaven to be more or less random?
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Post by grandmasterwang on Feb 15, 2016 1:50:44 GMT
Did anyone here update or fix certain army minor issues for balance? Specifically Orcs & Goblins, I don't really have a problem with the animosity rule but the armies effectiveness can be greatly downplayed because of that, cause its possible to be a 1's man for the game and yeah the opposite is also true as a 6 man but the 1's hurt significantly more then the 6's help also rolls of 2-5 having you declare a charge as if frenzied sucks. Not trying to complain just was not sure if anyone developed a more advanced table. I play high elves so I am not used to being restricted by random disasters. Also points costs for black orcs, is it not safe to say they are a flat 12 ppm w/ shields? Or maybe 11 ppm w/o shield? Also the arachnarok spider is insanely priced, think it should be a minimum 30 points cheaper. That's really all I have concerns for now that I am starting them. This balance of randomness too anything developed for skaven? Black Orcs can be devastating given the right match ups. Strength 7 due to Choppas rule on the first turn can mince a lot. Regarding their cost they pay a premium in the OnG book (which i am fine with) due to not suffering from animosity at all. A unit of black orcs in between say a unit of gobbos and Orcs can make the difference between them fighting each other or not. I actually like them at the current points. Immunity to terror is a big deal for OnG. I wish they had a better in built save (due to the models) but it is what it is. Compared with High Elves a lot of infantry will not seem great but that is more to do with elves than the other armies imo. If you compare them with say Greatswords or Infernal Guard you will see them in a different light. Regarding the OnG vs High Elf matchup...... Doomdivers MVP haha. |
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Post by roughtimes on Feb 15, 2016 14:55:51 GMT
It's probably impossible to balance a game like WH. You either have to accept the discrepancies or try to find like minded players that will comp themselves.
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Post by KevinC on Feb 15, 2016 15:26:17 GMT
roughtimes is right.
Though I must say, this is one reason I like 8th the best: 8th is truly the hardest for players to break compared to other editions. For example, these big four things prevent a lot of non-sense:
1. 2D6 magic dice
2. Random charge distant
4. Pass a LD test in order to avoid march blocking
3. More ranks = steadfast
Many players hate those 4 things. Do you know why? because it makes it so much harder to exploit the game.
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That Guy
New Member
Stay dangerous, it's safe out there...
Posts: 34
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Post by That Guy on Feb 15, 2016 18:37:19 GMT
Thanks for the insight. I totally agree 8th is hard to break and that's why I like it. I think overall it has a good balance, just some minor things. roughtimes for skaven it's not about being more or less random, just was not sure if anyone cleaned it up a little. My best friend loves skaven but he can almost never beat me unless he casts his dreaded 13 spell on my Phoenix guard which sometimes does not mean his victory. He does not enjoy fantasy because of this. Personally I think it's more skill on my part then it being high elf superiority. But he prefers AoS more because the rules change. (He still can't beat my high elves with his skaven, his beastmen and dwarves do though....) @grandmaster Wang- I can see what you are saying, when compared to the cost of chaos warrior's though, chaos warrior's outclass the black orcs and what cost 14 points per model? Yeah str 7 is nice but str 6 suffices in most situations. Heck with high elves most str 5 is all you need. Now this is going to sound stupid, but I actually haven't played my orcs and goblins yet. Still in the process of buying and assembling everything. Its just I read a lot of negative reviews and nothing positive for black orcs. Something else is always recommended to take over them. I love the black orc models. But I also do not like playing stuff that there is always a better alternative to pick. Plus in the past my unit of 10 sword masters of hoeth made mince meat of a unit of 20 black orcs. Which I understand why for ruled purposes but not for the same points cost. |
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Post by Anton on Feb 15, 2016 19:04:50 GMT
The way I see it you can either play 8th with all its imbalances and all its charm, or you can play 9th Age which focuses on balance above all else.
I'm playing both. In our more relaxed, family based gaming group, we always played uncomped 8th and we never really had a problem with balance. Not even with Tomb Kings. I don't think I could get the others into 9th even if I tried. In the local gaming club though, we're having great fun with 9th Age. It feels really fresh but it's also still very much Warhammer. It may not look it if you read the rules and armybooks because all the GW IP is removed, but on the table it's no more different than any other edition change.
So I guess my point is, play 8th as it is, it's balanced enough. Or go all the way and play 9th. Starting to change 8th is a slippery slope because you may start small, but once you start changing things you won't be able to stop.
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Post by TheREALricksalamone on Feb 15, 2016 20:36:35 GMT
That Guy Who cares if black orcs aren't an optimal unit choice? This is a game where we push around collectible toy soldiers. Use the units you like, think look cool, or dig their fluff. So you won't auto-win your battles...if that's happening the game probably isn't fun for either guy. I totally agree that black orcs look awesome. I'd love an army of them, Orc chariots, and boar boy cav.
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Post by madcowcox on Feb 15, 2016 20:51:11 GMT
I have not had any issues with unbalanced armies that are because of the books. I have had plenty of unbalanced games based on my "the is the list!". Then I learn it was not. The guys we play with say to lose your first 100 games quickly! There is alot to learn, and I have seen a paladin kill a demon prince and a skaven army beat high elves. Nothing is perfect, and often we don't know who we are playing so we rarely take super customized lists. Instead we take a decent list that should be OK in any fight. My ASL army of dwarves have won and lost plenty of battles and my empire lost to dwarves and were tabled. I enjoy playing some house rules now Ns then, but we never set out to change the game. It is very well balanced for all the pieces.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 15, 2016 22:14:37 GMT
I have seen ... a skaven army beat high elves. Yaaargh Matey, I seen that once. |
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Feb 15, 2016 22:26:18 GMT
I think if anyone really wanted to - They could bring a list that is UNFAIR in just about any army in 8th ED WFB.
Especially given general (or specific) knowledge of tournament scenarios, I have seen gamers bring armies well suited for WAAC.
I think The Empire and Chaos Warriors are both great examples of armies whereby you can bring a list that is both:
(1) Good, strong and competitive, without (2) resorting to UBERcheese. Which both of those army books are capable of, IMHO.
At 2500 points,
I think the steel wall of 1 death star of Inner Circle Knights + 10 archers + Karl Franz + 2 small units of demigryphs + Steam Tank + 2 cannons is not for me. It is strong, no doubt. But I don't see that as a real world army. Where could that army exist in real life? A real army would have lots of halberdiers, it would have some crossbowmen. Those are much more common in the Empire, day to day. In real life, an Imperial army marching to war would be mostly footslogging troops and squires and baggage peoples.
At 2500 points,
I think a Daemon Prince + Level 4 on a Disc + XYZ* (just enough for minimum core %age) Chariots + Shaggoth + other good stuff is still not quite for me. I like my ranks, I like my files. I feel better about any army that has necessary scrubs in it. Almost any army I run takes Marauders by the block of 25, cause I think almost any real life army in the Warhammer world would actually be comprised of a lot of redshirt marauders that just die a nameless death to your opponent's better troops. that's a necessary and enjoyable part of a tabletop war game to me.
Essentially, my opinion is this:
The world needs cannon fodder too.
Take more redshirts.
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Post by madcowcox on Feb 15, 2016 22:45:09 GMT
Wilson, one point you brought up might speak to some lack of balance. Making non core troops core. I know I can do it with centigors, but they aren't that good to start with. But people can certainly cater a list to an uber army. Not representative of any real scenario, where are kingdom has a tank and a bunch of elite cavalry. Much more likely to have a bunch of shoeless soldiers than a steam tank and elite horses.
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Post by roughtimes on Feb 15, 2016 23:59:47 GMT
Skaven are my favorite and largest army but I haven't played high elves in 8th (maybe once at the start). I'm assuming it's a pretty bad match for the rats.
Skaven were a very strong army efore some of the most recent high power books were released. Hey have a bunch of really gross stuff like giant blocks of slaves, doom rocket, hell pit, etc. I'm still disappointed that their book was never updated. There were a lot of issues that I would have loved to seen fixed (both over and underpowered aspects of the list).
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