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Post by roughtimes on Mar 1, 2016 12:25:50 GMT
Was it the content of the end times books or the high cost and the fact that the game died?
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 1, 2016 14:00:16 GMT
Was it the content of the end times books or the high cost and the fact that the game died? The killing of the world was the final blow however the content of the third End Times book in particular caused multiple wounds! Every elven player i know hated it. However it was the new 4d6 magic phase which did the real damage. Glottkin brought some great changes (epic new models drove interest also) which invigorated beastmen (marks ftw). Khaine however brought no new models giving collectors nothing to get excited for (so no positives) and the new super magic phase. A FLGS owner i know quite well said his 8th tournament attendance dropped by 50% as a result of End Times: Khaine. The problem was that if someone wanted to play with 4d6 magic then per the Khaine release it was RAW. Given the problems with OP magic spells this caused a fracturing of his local tournament community with half wanting the 'old 8th' magic and half (magic heavy armies as you can imagine) refusing to play without the new Khaine magic rules. He said that Khaine actually killed his community worse than Archaon did. Khaine was also imo the first 'lazy' End Times release as i thought Nagash and Glottkin were excellent releases which brought hype and great new models.
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Post by wilsonthenarc on Mar 1, 2016 17:09:48 GMT
Official FAQ: the content of the third End Times book causes multiple (D4) wounds.
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Post by KevinC on Mar 1, 2016 20:11:51 GMT
Was it the content of the end times books or the high cost and the fact that the game died? The killing of the world was the final blow however the content of the third End Times book in particular caused multiple wounds! Every elven player i know hated it. However it was the new 4d6 magic phase which did the real damage. Glottkin brought some great changes (epic new models drove interest also) which invigorated beastmen (marks ftw). Khaine however brought no new models giving collectors nothing to get excited for (so no positives) and the new super magic phase. A FLGS owner i know quite well said his 8th tournament attendance dropped by 50% as a result of End Times: Khaine. The problem was that if someone wanted to play with 4d6 magic then per the Khaine release it was RAW. Given the problems with OP magic spells this caused a fracturing of his local tournament community with half wanting the 'old 8th' magic and half (magic heavy armies as you can imagine) refusing to play without the new Khaine magic rules. He said that Khaine actually killed his community worse than Archaon did. Khaine was also imo the first 'lazy' End Times release as i thought Nagash and Glottkin were excellent releases which brought hype and great new models. To be fair, the ideology of GTs and tournament players have developed a misunderstanding of campaigns, supplements, and different ways to play the game. If you don't like the 4D6 magic phase in Khaine, why are you playing it? That's like saying, "Storm of Magic" sucks, I'm not playing Warhammer anymore. As much as I love playing in tournaments, it created a reality among players that the only way to play Warhammer is tournament format. So tournament players look at every rule, scenario, and supplement through the narrow lends of tournament play. I've played a handful of games using the Khaine magic rules, I had a blast. Does this mean I want to use it in every game of Warhammer? Absolutely not. It's stuff like this, where I'm forced to say: "I don't understand why people left." Because the answers people give are nonsense in my eyes, they seem to frame their argument with issues that might seem legitimate (not that their opinions are not legitimate). The "8th edition is not balanced" excuse is crazy to me - I guess those people didn't play other editions of Warhammer?? I believe the true reasons why people don't like 8th edition is for reasons they are not willing to admit, such as: • Random Charge Distance. Lots of tournament players don't like it because it makes the game must more difficult to manipulate with precision movement. • Stead Fast, Hordes, solid infantry. Tournament players have a much harder time designing their tough "disengagement" and spoiler armies - the skirmishing Skink army, the Dark Elf Dark Rider army, avoid all combat Wood Elf armies, the Tzeentch Flying Circus, etc. • March blocking, GT players can no longer auto march block your entire army! In Warhammer, mitigating your opponents movement has always been a major way to win the game. In 8th edition that is much harder to do. So naturally a tournament player is going to be annoyed that they can't march block a whole army with one eagle anymore. • As much as people claim magic is too powerful, that's not why GT players don't like 8th edition magic. GT players don't like that the Winds of Magic cannot be stacked like they could in 6 & 7 editions. "What it I roll double ones with my super magic heavy army - oh no, I could lose the game!" These are the true reasons why many don't like 8th, it has nothing to do with balance, or specific supplements, etc. The truth is that the game is very difficult to break. You cannot design an army that's going to auto win anymore.
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Post by roughtimes on Mar 1, 2016 21:41:10 GMT
^^^^ yup thats one of the big differences with modern warhammer. A lot of the players needed spoon feeding from GW. It's unfortunate, imho, that players felt handcuffed by the official GW rules. Missing out on fun. People also don't stick with "dead" game systems. They want new content and models. I've been guilty of giving up on a game when support ended. I want to stick with 8th bc I enjoy the rules and have a lifetime supply of models.
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Post by Allaric on Mar 3, 2016 6:12:17 GMT
Interesting topic. I think there's a lot going on here... 8th edition had been around for a while and I think there were a decent chunk of the player base that was ready for something new to reinvigorate the scene. I can imagine that it's fairly easy to burn out on the game when playing a high volume of tournament games. Unfortunately, AOS didn't do the job, which left alternate games or fan made ninth their best options. I also wonder if some players were at the end of their rope with GW. Even the most ardent GW fanboy has to admit that the death of WFB probably wasn't handled in the best way. Players are angry/upset with GW's actions and creating their own version of the game is a way to voice this displeasure. I honestly can't blame anyone for moving away from 8th. I see the appeal to ninth age and there is a part of me that wants nothing to do with GW and to instead support a different game like kow.
This is what I have been curious about, even though I think I understand why you and some other people feel this way , myself I don't and I'll explain why. First hobby games like Warhammer in general have an emotional component to them , finding and buying a favorite mini or army playing them with friends and making new friends , collecting models , etc people have a natural emotional feeling about it as opposed to something like buying and using gardening equipment or office supplies where you probably don't have any emotional feelings , this is all normal. It seems for some people GW was considered a part of their Warhammer World, GW played a part in being the ones that supplied and supported their game , making their models , publishing their rules , their content , their scenarios etc. , so when GW left the picture some people saw that as GW leaving their game , "their" as in "the players' and GWs' ", but if you look at the beginning of every edition of the BRB one of the first things it teaches players is how to start their "own" game , not you the player and GW , but you and your friends.
Myself I feel differently this is because I started playing Warhammer when GW barely existed in the US, at the beginning of 3rd edition. You had to order all your mini's from a black and white paper catalogue and wait 3 weeks to get them from the UK. No one had ever painted a Citadel miniature or made a game table or scenery , there was no one to call about rules , no internet forums , no painting blogs , no web pages , all we had to go by was what was in the rule book and a handful of White Dwarf magazines. Even with no support from GW , with just rule books and a couple of White Dwarfs , in 3 months we had a 8 foot battle table , 6 armies , and played Warhammer every weekend. If GW had stopped publishing Warhammer that year, we would have never noticed. In other words we bought the rules and our mini's and we set off on our own, created our own Warhammer World with it's campaign and held our own mini tournaments and we taught new players to play, all without GW.
I'm not upset that GW decided to blow up their version of their fictional Warhammer world , I am upset that some other players think all the other 100's or 1000's of other fictional Warhammer worlds that Warhammer players play in also blew up too. What GW wrote in the End Times doesn't have to apply to any Warhammer world. Warahmmer players can choose to use some or none of the End Times and can write their own ending of the story , like one where some or all the character's survive the world is intact and the world is rebuilt, or simply not use any of the End Times, either way it's the players playing the game that get to decide not GW studios. Playing Warhammer the way it was intended to be played means that what happens in your Warhammer World is what you and your friends decide happens , just like it says in the BRB.
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Post by grandmasterwang on Mar 3, 2016 6:35:30 GMT
Interesting topic. I think there's a lot going on here... 8th edition had been around for a while and I think there were a decent chunk of the player base that was ready for something new to reinvigorate the scene. I can imagine that it's fairly easy to burn out on the game when playing a high volume of tournament games. Unfortunately, AOS didn't do the job, which left alternate games or fan made ninth their best options. I also wonder if some players were at the end of their rope with GW. Even the most ardent GW fanboy has to admit that the death of WFB probably wasn't handled in the best way. Players are angry/upset with GW's actions and creating their own version of the game is a way to voice this displeasure. I honestly can't blame anyone for moving away from 8th. I see the appeal to ninth age and there is a part of me that wants nothing to do with GW and to instead support a different game like kow.
This is what I have been curious about, even though I think I understand why you and some other people feel this way , myself I don't and I'll explain why. First hobby games like Warhammer in general have an emotional component to them , finding and buying a favorite mini or army playing them with friends and making new friends , collecting models , etc people have a natural emotional feeling about it as opposed to something like buying and using gardening equipment or office supplies where you probably don't have any emotional feelings , this is all normal. It seems for a lot of people GW was considered a part of their Warhammer World, GW played a part in being the ones that supplied and supported the game , making models , publishing rules , content , scenarios etc. , so when GW left the picture some people saw that as GW leaving their game , "their" as in "the players' and GWs'", but if you look at the beginning of every edition of the BRB one of the first things it teaches players is how to start their "own" game , not you the player and GW , but you and your friends.
Myself I feel differently this is because I started playing Warhammer when GW barely existed in the US, at the beginning of 3rd edition. You had to order all your mini's from a black and white paper catalogue and wait 3 weeks to get them from the UK. No one had ever painted a Citadel miniature or made a game table or scenery , there was no one to call about rules , no internet forums , no painting blogs , no web pages , all we had to go by was what was in the rule book and a handful of White Dwarf magazines. Even with no support from GW , with just rule books and a couple of White Dwarfs , in 3 months we had a 8 foot battle table , 6 armies , and played Warhammer every weekend. If GW had gone under after that year, we would have never noticed. In other words we bought the rules and our mini's and we set off on our own, created our own Warhammer World with it's campaign and held our own mini tournaments and we taught new players to play, all without GW.
I'm not upset that GW decided to blow up their version of their fictional Warhammer world , I am upset that some other players think all the other 100's or 1000's of other fictional Warhammer worlds that Warhammer players play in also blew up too. What GW wrote in the End Times doesn't have to apply to any Warhammer world. Warahmmer players can choose to use some or none of the End Times and can write their own ending of the story , like one where some or all the character's survive the world is intact and the world is rebuilt, or simply not use any of the End Times, either way it's the players playing the game that get to decide not GW studios. Playing Warhammer the way it was intended to be played means that what happens in your Warhammer World is what you and your friends decide happens , just like it says in the BRB.
Shame you had to quote Mat Ward haha but my line of thinking regarding Warhammer is very much in line with yours. I see every release (including AoS) as a hypothetical for MY Warhammer world. I am actually fine with the End Times release because like the Storm of Chaos before it i just see it as possibilities for my beloved Warhammer world. Unfortunately for so many players "official" is super important. I do understand the frustrations gamers have with Games Workshop but for me the Warhammer world is larger than just them.
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