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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 6, 2020 23:50:35 GMT
Is it a breath weapon then?
As I assumed it'd follow the rules for breath weapons. But the strength etc would be dependant on the shooting versions rules...
That's how I've seen it played back in the day, anyway
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 7, 2020 0:04:30 GMT
Here is the complete rule for Coruscating Blast, with the Forgeworld variation between [].
Coruscating Blast The Carmine Dragon’s breath weapon is a sorcerous blast of powerful Amethyst magic capable of withering metal and rendering flesh to dust as if millennia had passed in mere seconds. This breath weapon works similarly to determining the effects of a cannon shot (see the Warhammer rulebook). The maximum range of the attack’s target point is 12" away from the monster and may be treated just like a normal breath weapon. After the target point has been selected, roll the Artillery dice to create a line of effect for the blast travelling in a straight line away from the dragon (just as for determining a ‘bounce’ for a cannon shot). A Misfire result should be re-rolled. Any model caught in the line of the blast suffers D3 wounds [with a strength equivalent to 10, minus the target’s Toughness score], with no Armour saves possible.
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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 7, 2020 9:47:26 GMT
As its a breath weapon, you can also use it in combat, right? So 2d6 hits. That's how I've seen it played at events. Not many events allowed it afterwards lol
A lot of these funky dragon breaths are explained for shooting only. Templates hit models once. It's like they forget about the combat aspect lol.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 7, 2020 10:01:09 GMT
2D6 hits at what S with what special effects? As already quoted above, for Shooting and CC, " the Strength and any special effects of the creature's Breath Weapon will be covered in its rules." The rule Coruscating Blast does not deal with CC, only Shooting - unless you want to apply exactly the same rule both for Shooting and CC, except that there is nothing to support that. Just like you, I get the distinct impression that this rule was written with the old rules for Breath Weapons in mind (which could only be used in the Shooting phase, not in CC).
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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 7, 2020 14:27:20 GMT
I think it's quite easy to work out the combat versions of the breath weapons, tbh. Simply ignore the range related stuff. (although distributed as per shooting, ofc)
Galrauch= 2D6 Toughness tests.
Carmine= 2D6 S(10 minus target Toughness) hits, Multiwound D3, no armour saves.
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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 7, 2020 14:29:34 GMT
What's the BRB wording for breath weapons say about combat? As if I remember correctly, it's only in 8th ed.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 7, 2020 14:37:04 GMT
I think it's quite easy to work out the combat versions of the breath weapons, tbh. Simply ignore the range related stuff. Galrauch= 2D6 Toughness tests. Carmine= 2D6 S(10 minus target Toughness) hits, Multiwound D3, no armour saves. I have to disagree. Whether or not it is easy will depend on the agreement of your opponent. In Galrauch's case, the wording as such rather favours one test, no matter how many hits. In the case of the Carmine Dragon, there is simply no specific provision for CC. What you propose is a solution; another would be to apply the rule both to Shooting and CC.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 7, 2020 14:40:19 GMT
What's the BRB wording for breath weapons say about combat? As if I remember correctly, it's only in 8th ed. Yes, it is only in 8th. I have put the most relevant part (which I already quoted) in Italics. BRB p. 67: "If the model with this special rule is in close combat, it can use the Breath Weapon to make an additional close combat attack at its own Initiative (in either player's turn). A model that makes a breath weapon attack in this way inflicts 2D6 automatic hits on a single enemy unit in base contact — if there is more than one enemy unit in base contact with the model, the controlling player chooses which enemy unit suffers the hits. As with breath weapon attacks made in the Shooting phase, the Strength and any special effects of the creature's Breath Weapon will be covered in its rules. Wounds caused by a Breath Weapon in close combat count towards combat resolution."
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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 7, 2020 14:55:12 GMT
Yeah, so it says there quite plainly, 2d6 hits of whatever the shooting version would inflict.
The Carmine dragon has a different way to shoot its breath - but the default combat version would obviously be to inflict 2d6 hits in combat.
Galrauch as a special character, has a very special (strength-less) breath, which happens to make it very potent, particularly in challenges. But surely it follows the rules for combat breath, and apply the effect (2d6 toughness tests).
From memory, all breath weapons seem to only describe their rules as ranged weapons. Under the BRB, it states that in combat, use 2d6 hits at the strength of the weapon (in Galrauch's unique case, the effect of it must be used instead).
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 7, 2020 15:37:16 GMT
Yeah, so it says there quite plainly, 2d6 hits of whatever the shooting version would inflict. No, it does not. It says "As with breath weapon attacks made in the Shooting phase, the Strength and any special effects of the creature's Breath Weapon will be covered in its rules." That is something completely different. Most Breath Weapons simply do not (and do not need to) distinguish between Shooting and CC, and their rules therefore apply to both. To take Breath of Change: "Breath of Change is a Breath Weapon. Any models hit must pass a Toughness test or be removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed." If one assumes this to be the case too for the Carmine Dragon, then one ends up with what I suggested above. Maybe we are just mislead by the fact that it "works similarly to determining the effects of a cannon shot," and we have taken the similarity a bit too far by not applying the same rule to CC. Regarding Galrauch: obviously, the special effect is the same in Shooting and CC: any models hit (whether once or multiple times) must pass a Toughness test. That is the more obvious reading of the phrase. Your reading of that particular phrase, while not impossible, is less likely. Normally, that would (and should) have been expressed by "For each hit, a model must pass etc." or somesuch. The fact that you can only hit one model in a challenge does not need to be compensated by having more tests for that model. Regarding the Carmine Dragon: I should also once again point out that the phrase "with a strength equivalent to 10, minus the target’s Toughness score" is only to be found in the Forgeworld pdf that had been available at the time on their website. It is absent from Tamurkhan and Monstrous Arcanum.
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Post by FvonSigmaringen on Mar 8, 2020 21:18:56 GMT
For those who (like karnus) are prepared to defer to ETC rules:
Q: If you take multiple hits from Galrauch’s breath, do you take multiple tests? A: No, just one.
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Post by Horace on Mar 9, 2020 10:02:52 GMT
They way it reads it seems like a singular test to me - for Gaulrauch at least
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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 9, 2020 12:49:41 GMT
Because templates cause 1 hit.
Breath weapons are templates, unless in combat where they are 2D6.
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Post by Horace on Mar 9, 2020 13:09:16 GMT
"any models hit must pass a Toughness test.."
This is all singular
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Post by DiscoQing on Mar 9, 2020 13:47:54 GMT
Because its a shooting attack made by a template.
In combat you would do 2d6 iterations 😉
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