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Post by Horace on May 17, 2020 20:40:33 GMT
Even if odd armies are more comparable - probably the low model count 8th ones, on the whole lots less models were needed. For reference this is the high elf army the chaos dwarfs were fighting (from the 4th/5th chaos dwarf army book) It is around 2200 points in today's money. The thing that makes it much easier to collect though is your points were generally contained in some high value heroes/ monsters etc, hence the hero hammer tag 
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Tubis
Full Member
 
Posts: 203
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Post by Tubis on May 17, 2020 20:47:11 GMT
 This is how army composition looked like in 4th and 5th edition. Note that champions had to be paid from the character allowance, and they were much more expensive then in 8th. I suspect the Chaos Dwarf army from the photo is just there to look pretty and not necesarilly legal. As for the number of models per army...well 5th edition was pure herohammer. Most regiments were completely helpless when facing the tooled up blender lords and heroes. I have no nostalgia for that period, when it comes to the rules, terrible stuff!
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Post by snyggejygge on May 18, 2020 8:27:39 GMT
Things like cavalry & smaller units were much more viable in earlier editions than 8th, which makes the armies easier to collect.
5th edition has the herohammer tag, but tbh it´s an unfair tag, characters back then were no better than they are in 8th edition, there was no unbreakable daemon princes with incredible saves, no unkillable lords. Basic champions got to have magic items, which helped a lot vs overpwered characters, Black gem of Gnar locked a character in time, heart of woe exploded when you got killed, Black Amulet rebound wounds, Talisman of Ravensdark made creatures with flying useless, every army had access to these items, so people couldn´t just take a tooled up dragon rider lord & hope to win. Magic was tougher to cast, you could have as many dispel scrolls as you wanted. Yes characters could dominate if you didn´t take actions against it, but nowhere near what they can do in 8th edition. Having said that, 5th edition had its flaws as well, I wouldn´t want a game just like that, I want something from each edition that could help make a perfect edition, a fun edition with balance (it should still have those oh shit moments), but not a tournament game like chess, 9th age or KoW.
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Post by Horace on May 18, 2020 9:58:21 GMT
I think the problem which made 8th require many more models is the step up rule. I'm not sure what the solution is, in 5th etc your rank and file getting decimated by characters before they got to fight and being unable to strike back is not right, but I think a middle ground needs to be struck in order to bring down the unit sizes.
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Post by snyggejygge on May 18, 2020 11:42:09 GMT
Step-up is part of the problem, as is hordes & steadfast. Personally I would like a mix between 6th & 8th. Chargers strike first, casulties are allowed to strike back but suffer a small (-1) to hit penalty as well as having outnumbering bonus back again instead of steadfast (but count actual models & not unit strength, this gives infantry the edge, or change steadfast so a flanking force removes it).
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Post by strutsagget on May 18, 2020 11:53:59 GMT
Hordes is what I love with 8ed!
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Post by Horace on May 18, 2020 13:15:47 GMT
Even in a smaller scale game there is nothing stopping you putting massive regiments down. You just play higher points
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Post by knoffles on May 18, 2020 18:17:39 GMT
Things like cavalry & smaller units were much more viable in earlier editions than 8th, which makes the armies easier to collect. 5th edition has the herohammer tag, but tbh it´s an unfair tag, characters back then were no better than they are in 8th edition, there was no unbreakable daemon princes with incredible saves, no unkillable lords. Basic champions got to have magic items, which helped a lot vs overpwered characters, Black gem of Gnar locked a character in time, heart of woe exploded when you got killed, Black Amulet rebound wounds, Talisman of Ravensdark made creatures with flying useless, every army had access to these items, so people couldn´t just take a tooled up dragon rider lord & hope to win. Magic was tougher to cast, you could have as many dispel scrolls as you wanted. Yes characters could dominate if you didn´t take actions against it, but nowhere near what they can do in 8th edition. Having said that, 5th edition had its flaws as well, I wouldn´t want a game just like that, I want something from each edition that could help make a perfect edition, a fun edition with balance (it should still have those oh shit moments), but not a tournament game like chess, 9th age or KoW. I loved 4th/5th ed. I agree it wasn’t really any worse than 8th. I used to love the orb of thunder. Trapping flyers up high. I loved the use of the card deck for magic. I remember being bitterly disappointed with 6th when it came out.
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Post by snyggejygge on May 18, 2020 19:59:41 GMT
Hordes is what I love with 8ed! Each to his own I guess, I like the sight of a horde, I don´t like the rules of a horde, why would you be able to strike with an extra rank because your unit is deployed wider, I would rather see something that maybe negates the rankbonus of the enemy (the fluff could be that they´re about to be surrounded by the enemy horde). However I was never a fan of including supporting attacks in the first place (step-up should have a penalty, only spearlike weapons should add support attacks), It´s these rules that make large units a must in 8th edition....
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beastyboy
Full Member
 
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 205
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Post by beastyboy on May 18, 2020 22:01:37 GMT
Hordes is what I love with 8ed! Each to his own I guess, I like the sight of a horde, I don´t like the rules of a horde, why would you be able to strike with an extra rank because your unit is deployed wider, I would rather see something that maybe negates the rankbonus of the enemy (the fluff could be that they´re about to be surrounded by the enemy horde). However I was never a fan of including supporting attacks in the first place (step-up should have a penalty, only spearlike weapons should add support attacks), It´s these rules that make large units a must in 8th edition.... a must ? the only viable option surely.
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Post by Naitsabes on May 19, 2020 0:28:28 GMT
This love for 4/5th edition rules makes me question your sanity. In my memory we had a whole list of house rules to gimp characters, yet they still were the only thing that mattered on the table. The best you could hope for was beating down the uber-guy with a cheap tricksy character (using some crutchy magic item to accomplish the 'trick'). Still not what I would hope for in a game of battle between armies.
edit: some of the models from that era do make me feel warm and fuzzy though. I will admit that.
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Post by Horace on May 19, 2020 8:40:06 GMT
I have love for 4th/5th, it certainly had it's problems though. My ideal edition would be an amalgamation of 8th and 4th/5th
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Tubis
Full Member
 
Posts: 203
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Post by Tubis on May 19, 2020 10:00:28 GMT
Things like cavalry & smaller units were much more viable in earlier editions than 8th, which makes the armies easier to collect. 5th edition has the herohammer tag, but tbh it´s an unfair tag, characters back then were no better than they are in 8th edition, there was no unbreakable daemon princes with incredible saves, no unkillable lords. Basic champions got to have magic items, which helped a lot vs overpwered characters, Black gem of Gnar locked a character in time, heart of woe exploded when you got killed, Black Amulet rebound wounds, Talisman of Ravensdark made creatures with flying useless, every army had access to these items, so people couldn´t just take a tooled up dragon rider lord & hope to win. Magic was tougher to cast, you could have as many dispel scrolls as you wanted. Yes characters could dominate if you didn´t take actions against it, but nowhere near what they can do in 8th edition. Having said that, 5th edition had its flaws as well, I wouldn´t want a game just like that, I want something from each edition that could help make a perfect edition, a fun edition with balance (it should still have those oh shit moments), but not a tournament game like chess, 9th age or KoW. That is not my experience, but of course this may differ depending on person. In 5th some of the special characters and weapon combinations were just wrong. Kragg the Grim with his S10 D6 wound hammer just smashing anything he touched. The hydra sword weilding vampire lords (that's 4xD6 s7 attacks for you younger folks) etc. Most regiments on the field were just decorations, when facing such odds. Of course me and my gaming friends were very young. Buidling the most OP combos was a natural part of the game for us back then. Only much later did I find out that a more gentelmanly approach provides a more enjoyable experience for all. However I feel 5th encouraged these silly builds more than other editions. As for specific 8th ed stuff, the horde rule I could do without. I preffer multiple moving pieces to fewer, suped-up deathstars. Alternatively, tweaking it is also an option. From what I recall in 9th age hordes do not provide rank bonus, which I think is an elegant solution and gives the smaller units a purpose. I am in favor of the 'step-up' rule and support attacks. Nothing more annoying than watching your troops getting cut down every turn by a higher initiative opponent, without being able to respond. Recently had a 6th ed game where my 20 strong greatsword block did not have a chance to swing a single time over 4 rounds of combat. Just reminded me of poorly infantry faired against cavalry and monsters back then. Each edition has its weaknesses, but I feel that 8th with a little bit of tweaking could really shine.
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Post by jukei on May 19, 2020 12:57:08 GMT
I was playing recently with a 2400 points army. we added on the tabletop several scenery terrain , ruins and so on. As a consequence we decided to not deploy in horde formation:-) It made me thing... the horde rule is there but ...common sense is our friend.
I remember Malorian videos on the tube ( check them out) . His battle reports were depressing....2 or 3 horde formations ...on a naked table( almost no forest..building...) , marching, throw dices and win/lose.
As in the law "we " expect a rule tells us what is right or not and what is the best thing to do instead , we should ask ourselves what is the right( and funniest ) thing to do . we have already the answer.
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Post by strutsagget on May 19, 2020 13:28:08 GMT
Two hordes clashing each other is the absolute most fun is the only answer.
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