|
Post by knoffles on May 29, 2020 12:22:08 GMT
I think the point is that every edition had its own flaws and power creep. 6th is often cited as the most balanced but that is purely down to ravening hordes. Once the army books were released there were definitely stronger armies and most players want to use army books not ravening hordes. I’ve played since 3rd ed and I like fantasy because of the over the top magic and characters. Mighty heroes and wizards doing their thing. I’m also ok with randomness and imbalance in the armies. Randomness and fun have always been inherent in the game and using a ‘lower tier’ army is a challenge (It’s one of the reasons I keep returning to beastmen). If I wanted a balanced game I’d play Kings of War. It’s just unfortunately a bit of a bland game because of the balance. The thing which elevated 6th above other editions (for me anyway) was all the extra addons that it got. Alternative lists, the WD articles etc. I still prefer 8th though, if only because they allowed premeasuring.
|
|
|
Post by DiscoQing on May 29, 2020 13:17:26 GMT
I too prefer premeasuring... However, I can't remember too much about not being allowed too,haha.
I do think that pre measuring is the disconnect between editions when it comes to cannons... Having the same mechanic but allowing measuring was silly. Should've changed either the way it fires, increased points, or had some form of chart to slightly randomise the firing. Stone throwers are pretty balanced i think because of the latter point 😊
I'd like to play a game of 6th, now that lockdown is loosening up!
|
|
|
Post by snyggejygge on May 30, 2020 9:22:08 GMT
On the contrary, I feel magic was much more reliable, but at the same time much easier to defend against. In 8th I would never dream of playing a game without a wizard lord, in earlier editions a scrollcaddie & some defensive items or a pair of scrollcaddies was enough in 2000 points, in 8th I feel like I´m forced to bring a wizard lord, in my last game I brought a Sorcerer lord of tzeentch with scroll & spellshield (inside unit of Tzeentch warriors) as my magical defense & that was just 1500 Points! 1500 Points in 5th or 6th I would´ve taken a single scrollcaddie & it would be just as effective & cost me half the points. Maybe it's my mindset, I used to be an avid tournament player, playing a game in any edition without a scroll felt like suicide, but more so in 8th where I feel you have to bring a lot more magical defenses, a cast Pit of shades or Purple sun will win the game 90% of the time, in 6th I don´t feel like any spell have the same impact.
I mean if you put all of your points in 1 unit like that at 1500 points, obviously 1 doom spell will finish you It´s 650 Points, not even half my points, & the reason it´s so expensive is because of that god damn wizard lord I´m forced to take & the stupid limitations of 8th edition which doesn´t allow me to take 2 kitted out heroes but a lord & a hero is ok. (seriously, they should´ve just made characters 50%, half of that may be spent on lords). Besides where should my sorcerer go, in a regiment of marauders? Oh wait, those are useless, they cost more than an imperial swordsman with the same equipment, but no specialrules & bigger base (so much for balance), maybe I should just powergame & go for Throgg to have core Trolls, then put all special points into chimera & gorebeast chariots which people like so much. As for cannons, I think that with the addition of premeasure they should´ve just make them work like stronger Bolt throwers (hit with Ballistic skill), easy fix, easy gameplay & better balance.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 30, 2020 9:58:52 GMT
Oh wait, those are useless, they cost more than an imperial swordsman with the same equipment, but no specialrules That is not really correct. They cost 1 point more, but they also have 1 point more Initiative, and the Champion has the Eye of the Gods special rule. I personally would gladly trade the 8th AB Detachment rules for those of the 7th. Nope. They already had a 20% point increase, and cost now almost twice as much as a HE/DE Bolt Thrower (which have higher BS). The only thing to change is a return to the previous rules, i.e. randomise between rider and mount, in the case of a ridden monster. Perhaps I could even live with cannon causing D3+1 W instead of D6. If the enemy comes prepared, a cannon may have only 2, sometimes even just 1 round of shooting.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 30, 2020 11:03:03 GMT
To add: In almost all editions, WoC have been a tier 1 army, Empire either tier 2 or 3. The only time the Empire came close to be a tier 1 army was the overlap 8th edition BRB/7th edition AB. In 8th edition too, WoC is generally considered to be a tier 1, Empire a tier 2 (or even 3) army - that is with the cannon as it is. Basically, a tier 1 army is complaining about a war machine of a tier 2 army, without which it would become a tier 3, or perhaps even tier 4 army.
|
|
|
Post by strutsagget on May 30, 2020 12:21:53 GMT
To add: In almost all editions, WoC have been a tier 1 army, Empire either tier 2 or 3. The only time the Empire came close to be a tier 1 army was the overlap 8th edition BRB/7th edition AB. In 8th edition too, WoC is generally considered to be a tier 1, Empire a tier 2 (or even 3) army - that is with the cannon as it is. Basically, a tier 1 army is complaining about a war machine of a tier 2 army, without which it would become a tier 3, or perhaps even tier 4 army. That’s one of my main problems with 8ed. Empire absolutely needs cannons to be playable competitively so of course you can’t just change cannons you also need to fix some of the armies that depends on the cannons. For example empire and maybe dwarfs. So it’s a slippery slope.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Blank on May 30, 2020 14:36:50 GMT
In all the games of 8th edition that I've used a cannon in (about 5) I think it's only killed more than its points cost once, when it 1 shot a giant. Last game it blew up on turn 1 taking 5% of my army's points for nothing, doesn't seem that op to me! All of those games have been played with the full terrain rules though so you don't automatically have clear shots at high value targets.
|
|
|
Post by FvonSigmaringen on May 30, 2020 16:30:50 GMT
That said, no deed to derail this particular thread any further, since there is already a cannon wailing and whining thread over in the Rules Questions section.
|
|
|
Post by snyggejygge on May 31, 2020 10:44:58 GMT
To add: In almost all editions, WoC have been a tier 1 army, Empire either tier 2 or 3. The only time the Empire came close to be a tier 1 army was the overlap 8th edition BRB/7th edition AB. In 8th edition too, WoC is generally considered to be a tier 1, Empire a tier 2 (or even 3) army - that is with the cannon as it is. Basically, a tier 1 army is complaining about a war machine of a tier 2 army, without which it would become a tier 3, or perhaps even tier 4 army. & exactly how many marauders do you see in said tier 1 army?? What I´m saying is that 8th edition isn´t as balanced as some might say it is, in earlier editions marauders as well as swordsmen were playable, in 8th with steadfast & horde rules (which should aid them) they actually became bad units, marauders more so than swordsmen (whom are still worse than halberdiers). Saying 8th edition is balanced & then complaining about earlier editions which obviously had better balance just doesn´t look right to me, yes I am aware this is an 8th edition fan forum, some people like it better than others, but to call it the best balanced edition when you have armies like Bretonnia, tomb Kings & beastmen so obviously underpowered & certain units is unplayable even in what you call tier 1 lists (btw if balance is so great, how come not all are in the same tier) just proves my point, just like every other edition, 8th has its flaws.
As for cannons, yes they increased in points, my fix would of course also make them cheaper to make up for the difference in efficency.
I pointed out that I wanted the old World return to be based on something simpler, something easier to get into, with better balance, then I´m met with people upset about me not finding 8th edition the most balanced, easy to get into edition, chill out guys, take a step back & you see what I mean, we want new players in warhammer, don´t we?
|
|
|
Post by strutsagget on May 31, 2020 11:07:39 GMT
I do not want the old world to be simpler. We got AoS for that. We don’t need one more AoS game but in the old world. We don’t need an other game for the beginners, they have tons of those, we need a supported game for us old school and a way to sell models on top of that. Yes it might be a new size system or just plain only new models game. I am fine with that.
But what we don’t need is jus an other intro drug game. That would feel stupid, it’s not like the new kid can pick up all of AoS, Kill Team, war cry, the air plane game, titanicus, shadespire, underworld and all these game aimed at boxes for the beginners.
The “new” market is us old comers and how to make a game and model’s that attracts to us to sell us minis.
|
|
|
Post by snyggejygge on May 31, 2020 16:07:07 GMT
You said earlier the most fun is 2 hordes bashing each other is the most fun there is, in what way is that complicated, its like yatzy, hope I roll better than my opponent. 😂 I want an easy to get into but hard to Master type of game, one where tactics such as a devastating flank charge matters & where the fight isn't settled by the lists. A mix of various editions with the best of every one, where cavalry isn't too good, but not worthless like in 8th, where magic matters but doesn't have overpowered spells, where infantry can stand up for themselves but tactical movement is more important than big hordes of troops with a dozen special rules.
|
|
|
Post by strutsagget on May 31, 2020 16:19:55 GMT
You said earlier the most fun is 2 hordes bashing each other is the most fun there is, in what way is that complicated, its like yatzy, hope I roll better than my opponent. 😂 I want an easy to get into but hard to Master type of game, one where tactics such as a devastating flank charge matters & where the fight isn't settled by the lists. A mix of various editions with the best of every one, where cavalry isn't too good, but not worthless like in 8th, where magic matters but doesn't have overpowered spells, where infantry can stand up for themselves but tactical movement is more important than big hordes of troops with a dozen special rules. Not sure why one would forfeit the other? Just because you run hordes does not mean you stop using tactics. Multi charges, angles of movement and so on is a lot harder with big units then small...
|
|
|
Post by Mr Blank on May 31, 2020 18:18:55 GMT
I'd like to see hordes limited to certain units, ideally each army would have a few bog standard troops which could be deployed in a horde but the elites couldn't. That might get rid of some of the more cheesy deathstars and GW could even charge less for those particular units to make the buy in a bit easier (that's moving pretty much outside the realms of possibility though) I'd also be interested to see if they make any rules about 20mm vs 25mm base sizes as stuff that's been rebased onto round bases can be used on trays but only as 25mm squares.
|
|
beastyboy
Full Member
5th eddition lizardmen !
Posts: 227
|
Post by beastyboy on May 31, 2020 18:43:17 GMT
I find that theres little point running gors and bestigors in non hordes they die in droves and you need the wounds to hit back.
|
|
|
Post by alanthemoderate on May 31, 2020 18:54:32 GMT
I do not want the old world to be simpler. We got AoS for that. We don’t need one more AoS game but in the old world. We don’t need an other game for the beginners, they have tons of those, we need a supported game for us old school and a way to sell models on top of that. Yes it might be a new size system or just plain only new models game. I am fine with that. But what we don’t need is jus an other intro drug game. That would feel stupid, it’s not like the new kid can pick up all of AoS, Kill Team, war cry, the air plane game, titanicus, shadespire, underworld and all these game aimed at boxes for the beginners. The “new” market is us old comers and how to make a game and model’s that attracts to us to sell us minis. Given how AoS rulebooks encourage you to 'recreate battles in the world that was' already, I really doubt they would make The Old World more simple. 8th Edition Warhammer 40k got a lot more simple than 7th edition, but Horris Hersey remained equally complex, and that is fully what I expect for The Old World as well.
|
|