Wood Elves Vs Ogre Kingdom Tactica - asarai.druchii.net
Jan 23, 2021 8:06:36 GMT
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Post by strutsagget on Jan 23, 2021 8:06:36 GMT
So In my quest for preserving I will move some well written stuff I found elsewhere:
Written by LandonElf
asrai.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25820
I will try to keep things brief by only listing the things that I have personally played against and/or units that are notably present in common Ogre lists in my meta. I don’t own the book, so I don’t’ have a complete knowledge of all units, so please feel free to comment with any corrections/additions.
I am not an Ogre expert by any means, but I have played upwards of 60-70 games vs them and have won many, even in tournament settings. Make no mistake though, Ogres are one of our worst matchups and beating them will require a strong strategy and a great deal of luck.
Army-Wide Rules for Ogres
Fear- All Ogres in the army have Fear
Speed 6- All ogres have at least speed 6
Ogre Charge- All Ogres in the army have impact hits with +1 strength for each additional rank beyond the first. Additionally, if they roll a 10+ on 2d6 on the charge/overrun/pursue, then each Ogre gets d3 impact hits.
Monstrous Infantry- Being monstrous infantry, Ogres have stomp attacks, ranks consisting of 3 models, and an immunity to killing blow.
What to Bring
What to bring vs Ogres- Treemen, Treekin, Eagle Nobles, redirectors and plenty of shooting. Ogres win games via combat, so your goal is to delay large combat units while you whittle them down. Only at the last possible second do you engage them with your trees. Weirdly, a tooled up Forest Dragon Highborn has performed well in the past. Lore of Beasts is nice as Curse makes any Ogre hit only on 5’s and Amber Spear can threaten entire units.
What to leave at home vs Ogres- Wardancers, Waywatchers, Eternal Guard, and Wildriders. Killing blow is useless vs nearly the entire army. Yes Eternal Guard can stall, but being T3 and infantry, they will vaporize quickly to stomps and S4-6 attacks. Wildriders can be useful but will suffer horrible casualties even on a flank charge, due to 3 attacks per ogre. Lore of Life can be iffy, though Throne of Vines is useful vs hellheart (see items). The entire army is S4 so Dwellers has limited usefulness, though for every 5-6 he rolls an Ogre will die.
Characters
Tyrant- Lord level melee character with good stats and good leadership. Rarely taken in competitive lists due to cost but sometimes present for their leadership. Can be a threat in challenges or when they take the Crown of Command in a deathstar.
Slaughtermaster- Lord Level wizard with access to good lores (i think death and beasts notably). Access to magic armor is allowed due to a loophole in the book, so they are frequently seen with Armor of Destiny and/or Hellheart (see items). 5 Wounds , T5, and a 4+/4++ can make these guys super tough to kill, and very resistant to miscasts.
Bruiser- Hero level melee character, almost universally present as a BSB, (see Tyrant). A nasty trick is to take full command on a large unit of Ogres, and thus force him (and others) into the second row, similar to our Eternal Guard character bus trick, though Ogres only need 3 to fill out a rank, so it’s much more cost effective.
Butcher- Hero level wizard. Nearly universally taken as scroll caddy. Ogres require at least one wizard to take Lore of the Great Maw, so Butchers frequently will also be Great Maw caddies as well.
Firebelly- Hero level wizard with Lore of Fire. Has a breath weapon and flaming attacks. Rarely taken in general but popular option vs Woodelves for obvious reasons.
Answers- The best policy for Ogre characters is avoidance, stalling, and redirecting. Most will be bunkered in large deathstars and are too tough to be assassinated by lone eagles or heroes. Shoot their bunkers as much as possible and stay far away until you absolutely have to engage.
Core
Bulls- The vanilla Ogre with WS3 S4 T4 and heavy armor. Generally found in large units. Low weapon skill and initiative means they rely on their impact hits and stomps, as well as large numbers of attacks (3 a piece) to score wounds.
Iron Guts- The infamous “gutstar”. Basically Ogre Bulls with great weapons. A bit more pricier but gaining S6 is generally worth the price.
Answers- Glade Guard, Amber Spear, Treeman, Hail of Doom arrow and large units of Treekin. Very susceptible to redirecting with great Eagles given their large footprints. DO NOT let them charge your combat units if possible. If your looking for a unit to constantly focus-fire your shots, this is likely the best choice.
Gnoblars- These little guys can be quite the annoyance but don’t provide any real threat. They can be upgraded to trappers which make any model charging them take a dangerous terrain test, so keep your eternal guard and wildrider busses away from them! Also noteworthy, these guys don’t trigger panic checks in nearby Ogre units, so don’t bother trying to wipe them out to force panic checks.
Special
Leadbelchers- Ogres with guns! The guns shoot 1d6 shots per model and are S4 AP. They are only BS 3 but they don’t suffer a movement penalty. They usually won’t land many shots, but when they do it hurts! They also aren’t exactly slouches in combat, as they have typical Ogre stats (albeit with light armor)
Answers- These guys vaporize to glade guard fire pretty well, especially considering their weak armor and hefty point cost. Dryads are also a good option as the leadbelchers will struggle to hit them, but don’t expect a pushover combat once you reach them.
Mournfang- The mother of all monstrous cavalry. S5 mounts with tons of attacks, 2+/6++ saves, and d3 impact hits. These guys are tough, fast, and hit super hard. Arguably the biggest threat in the army for woodelves. I have seen a single unit destroy nearly an entire woodelf army.
Answers- Our options are few. Amber Spear works well. Forced panic checks can help as they have low leadership. Treeman can usually stall them fairly well. I have also had luck with Eagle/Great Stag mounted Highborns, as they need 5’s to be hit. The ideal answer is a Wyssan’d unit of Treekin. If your feeling frisky, the Spirit Sword is also effective vs these guys. As with any unit, redirecting and blocking is effective.
Sabretusk – A chaff unit that is nearly as cost effective as a great eagle. They are warbeasts with great stats and will undoubtedly be hunting your wizard bunkers and glade guard units. They are fast and strong but only have ld 4.
Answers- A neat trick is to shoot these guys early game when they are first deployed or anytime when they are close to other units. Unlike gnoblars, these guys trigger panic checks in nearby Ogre units. I sometimes throw solo character bow shots at them hoping for a 5 to wound, but otherwise I ignore them until I absolutely have to deal with them. If you made the mistake of taking waywatchers/wardancers vs ogres, then feel free to use your KB hits on sabretusks.
Maneaters- You know how people say that Treekin are the second best monstrous infantry in the game? Well meet first place. Their stats are great, and they can choose to have Stubborn, Scouts, Poison, or even Sniper. They have a ton of attacks and can be in your face turn 1 with scouting. Sometimes they have Ogre Pistols for extra attacks and chaff shooting.
Answers- Maneaters are strong but they still only have a 5+ armor save. Glade guard fire is ideal as they are usually within short range turn 1, but Treekin provide an even fight model for model. Hail of doom is always helpful and Treeman will slowly grind them down. Amber Spear, as always, is effective.
Gorger- A frenzied unbreakable ambusher that can really hurt if left ignored. Cost quite a few points and so is rarely used, but it is particularly effective vs squishy archers in the backfield.
Answers- This is why we take musicians. Free reform a small unit of glade guard, backup 3 inches, and blast him. If you don’t kill him, don’t worry, you should still get a stand and shoot to polish him off.
Rare
Ironblaster- A canon mounted on a chariot, pulled by a mournfang, driven by an ogre (with a gnoblar just for fun!). This unit is stupidly powerful, and is in my personal top 5 most overpowered units in all of warhammer. T6 with a 4+ and the ability to move and shoot his canon AND reroll the bounce makes him a threat from all angles. I’ve even seen it win combat vs elite hordes!
Answer- The good old Eagle Noble. Get about 17-18 inches away and force the Ironblaster to either make a long charge or risk wasting his shot on a 3+ ward save. Then, assuming you survive, charge him. You should either win or tie combat which is fine. Your job is to keep him tied up so he isn’t killing Treemen and Treekin all game. He’s only leadership 7 with low WS, so forcing panic checks on him can also be useful.
Stonehorn/Thundertusk – A very strong monster that is taken in higher points games. Has a something like 3d3+3 impact hits on the charge and reduces multiple wounds so Amber Spear isn’t as effective. Can be ridden by a "fake" character or an actual character
Answer- Low leadership plus frenzy makes this model a sucker for fast cavalry units or flyers. You can frequently bait him into super long charges over and over again. Most of our ranged attacks will bounce off of him, but as long as he doesn’t get the charge on you, he can be slowly whittled down by some of our heavy hitters (mounted nobles, treeman, and treekin). Challenges can help mitigate damage to a unit if the rider is in fact a character.
Giants- A rarely taken monster due to a complete lack of saves. However he is still a monster with some rather effective (and hilarious) close combat attacks. Specializes in killing other Monsters.
Answer- Glade Guard and Flock of doom. A few 6s and he is down for the count. DO NOT make the mistake of putting Treeman in combat with him.
Items of Note
Hellheart- My most hated arcane item. It forces wizards, during their own magic phases nonetheless, to suffer a miscast. I think it can even effect multiple wizards, but its range is random. It can effectively shut down your entire magic phase, and has on multiple occasions sent my wizard lord into the void. When combined with a second wizard with a dispel scroll, you can effectively lose 2 of your 6 magic phases.
Answer- Keep your wizards away from Ogre wizards! There’s no stopping the item from going off, aside from killing the holder, but sometimes you can make the Ogre player waste it by using it at long range. Spellsingers can be positioned to bait a hellheart use as Ogre players aren’t known for their self control.
Dragonhide Banner- This banner wins games. A unit with this banner gets to reroll all ones when they charge. They can reroll 1s to hit, 1s to wound, and I think even armor saves. On top of that it grants a breath weapon of some kind that makes you ASL when it hits. Usually present on Mournfangs or Maneaters, but in a comped environment sometimes present on BSB’s.
Answer- None. Receiving an Ogre charge is already bad enough, receiving an Ogre Charge with the Dragonhide banner is certain death for any Woodelf unit I know of. Just try to stall, redirect, shoot, amber spear, and hide from any unit with this banner. A large unit of Wyssan’d Treekin with character support (ideally with crown of command) could work if you are truly desperate.
Iron Fists- A special ogre shield that many ogres can take. Grants a point of armor as well as a parry save, even to mounted characters.
Ogre Pistols- Purchasable on elite units and characters. Provides an extra attack as well as a 24 inch shot. Usually taken just for the extra attack, but can be annoying when they pluck wounds off of Great Eagles.
Spells of Note
Troll Guts- A unit-wide regeneration spell that can be boosted into a 12” bubble. Frequently the favorite spell of Ogre wizards with Lore of the Great Maw.
Answer- This is why we take Banner of Eternal Flame! Generally not a huge problem unless they cast it while the Ogres are already in combat or it hits a unit that you plan on using Amber Spear on.
Buffs- They have a +1S spell and a separate +1T spell. Both are useful and can swing combats.
Brain Gobbler- A spell with a long range that forces a panic check on a unit. Not terribly useful vs us but sometimes targeted vs lone great eagles.
Written by LandonElf
asrai.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25820
I will try to keep things brief by only listing the things that I have personally played against and/or units that are notably present in common Ogre lists in my meta. I don’t own the book, so I don’t’ have a complete knowledge of all units, so please feel free to comment with any corrections/additions.
I am not an Ogre expert by any means, but I have played upwards of 60-70 games vs them and have won many, even in tournament settings. Make no mistake though, Ogres are one of our worst matchups and beating them will require a strong strategy and a great deal of luck.
Army-Wide Rules for Ogres
Fear- All Ogres in the army have Fear
Speed 6- All ogres have at least speed 6
Ogre Charge- All Ogres in the army have impact hits with +1 strength for each additional rank beyond the first. Additionally, if they roll a 10+ on 2d6 on the charge/overrun/pursue, then each Ogre gets d3 impact hits.
Monstrous Infantry- Being monstrous infantry, Ogres have stomp attacks, ranks consisting of 3 models, and an immunity to killing blow.
What to Bring
What to bring vs Ogres- Treemen, Treekin, Eagle Nobles, redirectors and plenty of shooting. Ogres win games via combat, so your goal is to delay large combat units while you whittle them down. Only at the last possible second do you engage them with your trees. Weirdly, a tooled up Forest Dragon Highborn has performed well in the past. Lore of Beasts is nice as Curse makes any Ogre hit only on 5’s and Amber Spear can threaten entire units.
What to leave at home vs Ogres- Wardancers, Waywatchers, Eternal Guard, and Wildriders. Killing blow is useless vs nearly the entire army. Yes Eternal Guard can stall, but being T3 and infantry, they will vaporize quickly to stomps and S4-6 attacks. Wildriders can be useful but will suffer horrible casualties even on a flank charge, due to 3 attacks per ogre. Lore of Life can be iffy, though Throne of Vines is useful vs hellheart (see items). The entire army is S4 so Dwellers has limited usefulness, though for every 5-6 he rolls an Ogre will die.
Characters
Tyrant- Lord level melee character with good stats and good leadership. Rarely taken in competitive lists due to cost but sometimes present for their leadership. Can be a threat in challenges or when they take the Crown of Command in a deathstar.
Slaughtermaster- Lord Level wizard with access to good lores (i think death and beasts notably). Access to magic armor is allowed due to a loophole in the book, so they are frequently seen with Armor of Destiny and/or Hellheart (see items). 5 Wounds , T5, and a 4+/4++ can make these guys super tough to kill, and very resistant to miscasts.
Bruiser- Hero level melee character, almost universally present as a BSB, (see Tyrant). A nasty trick is to take full command on a large unit of Ogres, and thus force him (and others) into the second row, similar to our Eternal Guard character bus trick, though Ogres only need 3 to fill out a rank, so it’s much more cost effective.
Butcher- Hero level wizard. Nearly universally taken as scroll caddy. Ogres require at least one wizard to take Lore of the Great Maw, so Butchers frequently will also be Great Maw caddies as well.
Firebelly- Hero level wizard with Lore of Fire. Has a breath weapon and flaming attacks. Rarely taken in general but popular option vs Woodelves for obvious reasons.
Answers- The best policy for Ogre characters is avoidance, stalling, and redirecting. Most will be bunkered in large deathstars and are too tough to be assassinated by lone eagles or heroes. Shoot their bunkers as much as possible and stay far away until you absolutely have to engage.
Core
Bulls- The vanilla Ogre with WS3 S4 T4 and heavy armor. Generally found in large units. Low weapon skill and initiative means they rely on their impact hits and stomps, as well as large numbers of attacks (3 a piece) to score wounds.
Iron Guts- The infamous “gutstar”. Basically Ogre Bulls with great weapons. A bit more pricier but gaining S6 is generally worth the price.
Answers- Glade Guard, Amber Spear, Treeman, Hail of Doom arrow and large units of Treekin. Very susceptible to redirecting with great Eagles given their large footprints. DO NOT let them charge your combat units if possible. If your looking for a unit to constantly focus-fire your shots, this is likely the best choice.
Gnoblars- These little guys can be quite the annoyance but don’t provide any real threat. They can be upgraded to trappers which make any model charging them take a dangerous terrain test, so keep your eternal guard and wildrider busses away from them! Also noteworthy, these guys don’t trigger panic checks in nearby Ogre units, so don’t bother trying to wipe them out to force panic checks.
Special
Leadbelchers- Ogres with guns! The guns shoot 1d6 shots per model and are S4 AP. They are only BS 3 but they don’t suffer a movement penalty. They usually won’t land many shots, but when they do it hurts! They also aren’t exactly slouches in combat, as they have typical Ogre stats (albeit with light armor)
Answers- These guys vaporize to glade guard fire pretty well, especially considering their weak armor and hefty point cost. Dryads are also a good option as the leadbelchers will struggle to hit them, but don’t expect a pushover combat once you reach them.
Mournfang- The mother of all monstrous cavalry. S5 mounts with tons of attacks, 2+/6++ saves, and d3 impact hits. These guys are tough, fast, and hit super hard. Arguably the biggest threat in the army for woodelves. I have seen a single unit destroy nearly an entire woodelf army.
Answers- Our options are few. Amber Spear works well. Forced panic checks can help as they have low leadership. Treeman can usually stall them fairly well. I have also had luck with Eagle/Great Stag mounted Highborns, as they need 5’s to be hit. The ideal answer is a Wyssan’d unit of Treekin. If your feeling frisky, the Spirit Sword is also effective vs these guys. As with any unit, redirecting and blocking is effective.
Sabretusk – A chaff unit that is nearly as cost effective as a great eagle. They are warbeasts with great stats and will undoubtedly be hunting your wizard bunkers and glade guard units. They are fast and strong but only have ld 4.
Answers- A neat trick is to shoot these guys early game when they are first deployed or anytime when they are close to other units. Unlike gnoblars, these guys trigger panic checks in nearby Ogre units. I sometimes throw solo character bow shots at them hoping for a 5 to wound, but otherwise I ignore them until I absolutely have to deal with them. If you made the mistake of taking waywatchers/wardancers vs ogres, then feel free to use your KB hits on sabretusks.
Maneaters- You know how people say that Treekin are the second best monstrous infantry in the game? Well meet first place. Their stats are great, and they can choose to have Stubborn, Scouts, Poison, or even Sniper. They have a ton of attacks and can be in your face turn 1 with scouting. Sometimes they have Ogre Pistols for extra attacks and chaff shooting.
Answers- Maneaters are strong but they still only have a 5+ armor save. Glade guard fire is ideal as they are usually within short range turn 1, but Treekin provide an even fight model for model. Hail of doom is always helpful and Treeman will slowly grind them down. Amber Spear, as always, is effective.
Gorger- A frenzied unbreakable ambusher that can really hurt if left ignored. Cost quite a few points and so is rarely used, but it is particularly effective vs squishy archers in the backfield.
Answers- This is why we take musicians. Free reform a small unit of glade guard, backup 3 inches, and blast him. If you don’t kill him, don’t worry, you should still get a stand and shoot to polish him off.
Rare
Ironblaster- A canon mounted on a chariot, pulled by a mournfang, driven by an ogre (with a gnoblar just for fun!). This unit is stupidly powerful, and is in my personal top 5 most overpowered units in all of warhammer. T6 with a 4+ and the ability to move and shoot his canon AND reroll the bounce makes him a threat from all angles. I’ve even seen it win combat vs elite hordes!
Answer- The good old Eagle Noble. Get about 17-18 inches away and force the Ironblaster to either make a long charge or risk wasting his shot on a 3+ ward save. Then, assuming you survive, charge him. You should either win or tie combat which is fine. Your job is to keep him tied up so he isn’t killing Treemen and Treekin all game. He’s only leadership 7 with low WS, so forcing panic checks on him can also be useful.
Stonehorn/Thundertusk – A very strong monster that is taken in higher points games. Has a something like 3d3+3 impact hits on the charge and reduces multiple wounds so Amber Spear isn’t as effective. Can be ridden by a "fake" character or an actual character
Answer- Low leadership plus frenzy makes this model a sucker for fast cavalry units or flyers. You can frequently bait him into super long charges over and over again. Most of our ranged attacks will bounce off of him, but as long as he doesn’t get the charge on you, he can be slowly whittled down by some of our heavy hitters (mounted nobles, treeman, and treekin). Challenges can help mitigate damage to a unit if the rider is in fact a character.
Giants- A rarely taken monster due to a complete lack of saves. However he is still a monster with some rather effective (and hilarious) close combat attacks. Specializes in killing other Monsters.
Answer- Glade Guard and Flock of doom. A few 6s and he is down for the count. DO NOT make the mistake of putting Treeman in combat with him.
Items of Note
Hellheart- My most hated arcane item. It forces wizards, during their own magic phases nonetheless, to suffer a miscast. I think it can even effect multiple wizards, but its range is random. It can effectively shut down your entire magic phase, and has on multiple occasions sent my wizard lord into the void. When combined with a second wizard with a dispel scroll, you can effectively lose 2 of your 6 magic phases.
Answer- Keep your wizards away from Ogre wizards! There’s no stopping the item from going off, aside from killing the holder, but sometimes you can make the Ogre player waste it by using it at long range. Spellsingers can be positioned to bait a hellheart use as Ogre players aren’t known for their self control.
Dragonhide Banner- This banner wins games. A unit with this banner gets to reroll all ones when they charge. They can reroll 1s to hit, 1s to wound, and I think even armor saves. On top of that it grants a breath weapon of some kind that makes you ASL when it hits. Usually present on Mournfangs or Maneaters, but in a comped environment sometimes present on BSB’s.
Answer- None. Receiving an Ogre charge is already bad enough, receiving an Ogre Charge with the Dragonhide banner is certain death for any Woodelf unit I know of. Just try to stall, redirect, shoot, amber spear, and hide from any unit with this banner. A large unit of Wyssan’d Treekin with character support (ideally with crown of command) could work if you are truly desperate.
Iron Fists- A special ogre shield that many ogres can take. Grants a point of armor as well as a parry save, even to mounted characters.
Ogre Pistols- Purchasable on elite units and characters. Provides an extra attack as well as a 24 inch shot. Usually taken just for the extra attack, but can be annoying when they pluck wounds off of Great Eagles.
Spells of Note
Troll Guts- A unit-wide regeneration spell that can be boosted into a 12” bubble. Frequently the favorite spell of Ogre wizards with Lore of the Great Maw.
Answer- This is why we take Banner of Eternal Flame! Generally not a huge problem unless they cast it while the Ogres are already in combat or it hits a unit that you plan on using Amber Spear on.
Buffs- They have a +1S spell and a separate +1T spell. Both are useful and can swing combats.
Brain Gobbler- A spell with a long range that forces a panic check on a unit. Not terribly useful vs us but sometimes targeted vs lone great eagles.
